Nice New Marantz Receiver; Sub-hookup still a problem

[boa12]

i'm about to get the new marantz sr-8000 receiver & found now that it has a set non-adjustable sub preout cut-off of 100hz. u denon guys can now crow as i understand they have adjustable sub crossover control

hence the problem (again) w/ many of today's

a/v receivers using the sub pre-out.

i have the vel hgs-18 w/ of course adjustable

crossover(50-120) & a crossover in/out switch. for music i can set the crossover in at say 80hz or lil lower & it blends great w/ the klf-30s. w/ the crossover out it gets that boominess from the higher frequencies when listenin to the cd tunes.

but if i leave the cross in at a lower point then there's that possibility of losing some lfe because it's only sent to the sub preout & can go up to 120hz.

also on it's direct mode the marantz sends no output to the sub preout.

i've determined(am i correct?) that the only way to really get the best sound w/o getting up to adjust the sub each time i go from music to HT is just hooking-up the sub to the main preouts while also having the klf-30 hooked to the main speaker levels & setting the sub:no (fronts large of course).

is this how most w/ the marantz 8000 or like receiver bass mgmt do it?

i'm coming to the conclusion that these receivers sub outs & related controls are really worthless for listeners who want the best sound & easiest functionality for both music & HT. why do they bother? other than this the marantz i'm sure will sound great w/ the speakers.

p.s., the marantz has no B terminals; & i want to use these expensive monsterbass interconnects for the perceived better sub output.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster S-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage '75)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[decibel man]

Hi Boa, we keep running into each other. For what it is worth, I have the HK AVR7000 which has an adjustable subwoofer crossover built in. It only has three frequencies, 80, 90 and 100, but it works rather well with my LF-10 and RF-3's. I like it at 80 for music and 100 for most movie listening. You just pop up the on-screen display and away you go making adjustments. I know this model has had some mixed reviews, but in the last 14 months I have had no complaints. It has a monsterous 75 amps of current. It does not have an A/B speaker option or 6.1 / 7.1 surround though. They are due to come out with a 6.1 / 7.1 format receiver in the very near future. Since my family room doesn't allow for decent placement of a rear center this is probably my unit for a long while.

I know someone was talking about their B & K receiver that had a crossover adjustment with 5Hz increments. It might even remember the crossover point for each input, I am not sure. That would be nice. Good luck with the new receiver.

JT

[boa12]

thanks d-man. & i guess it remembers those settings for the various modes? guess 100hz

cut-off of lfe is close enough or does it also send lfe to mains set to large?

now u've got me in my anal ret. mode

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster M series/Biwire

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires w/ Monster bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[BLOOMIS914]

Boa12, As you know I have the SR8000. The best way to hook up a sub or subs with this unit is to use both the LFE output from the SR8000 to a Y-splitter into the sub LFE in and right or left input as well as speaker level inputs.

Run L & R speaker wire from A-terminals at receiver to sub speaker level inputs, in addition to speaker wire running to your mains (KLF-30's). I set my KSW-15 front sub to around 50-60 HZ and a level of 7.5-8.5 and my rear KSW-100 sub is set around 70 Hz and a level of 6 or 7.

Let me know how it works out or if you have any questions. The Marantz is designed for the 2-ch purist in mind and does not offer sub-out signal when listening to 2-ch stereo unless hooked up as I described above. Otherwise, this unit is awesome minus the B-speaker output and 6.1 or 7.1 capability.

Brett

[boa12]

bloom, thanks for that info. using both speaker & line connects is out for my sub. the vel hgs manual boldy states not to use both - not to get into that ksw thing but they're definitely wired differently (no seperate lfe input (unfiltered) on vel).

i'll try some various set-ups & see what works probably tomorrow.

since i have to get under the house anyway i may even try biwiring the klf. will report back here on the sound(s).

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster M/Biwire

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires w/ Monster bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[kleggatt]

I have been thinking of upgrading my receiver a lot and I do not think that I will after reading a lot of the posts on this board. Most people are really complaining about the built in sub crossover that recievers use for their sub out. The only receiver that I have ever seen that has a variable subwoofer out, from 50-200hz on it is the Technics SA-AX7 which can be had for around 300 bucks US. True it is only dolby digital ready but it is extremely flexible. The 6 channel inputs by pass this feature and utilize the SH-AC500D decoders for the DD decoding. I wish some high end receivers had this feature. It would be easier for me to upgrade. I have this set up to crossover with my RF-3's at 50 HZ and I have the subs input set at 100HZ so I don't miss and LFE information.

[boa12]

kleg, yea i agree the receiver makers (even marantz) just haven't kept up w/ sub development. subs now have their own crossovera & power whereas originally they mostly were passive w/ no crossover control.

if i had that active crossover in the receiver i'd just switch the sub crossover out(if available) or turn it up all the way (usually 120hz) as lfe technically can go all the way up to 120hz & all of it is sent to the sub.

i'm convinced the best way for me will be to switch to sub off(no) & hook up my velodyne to the main preouts. that way the sub gets lfe up to it's set crossover point & the klf-30s(connected speaker level) also get lfe

full range. could really add some db to those explosions.

then when i switch to music won't have to mess w/ the settings & the sub & klf are set to blend perfectly.

definitely going to try that.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster M/Biwire/Bananas

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires w/ Monster bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[BLOOMIS914]

Boa12- You're on the right track. Let us know how it works out. That VEL HGS-18 should be putting out some earth shaking bass with that system you have if not try LFE out to Y-splitter into R/L inputs on sub....forget speaker level also if VEL manual says no. One or the other should show some audible difference.

[BLOOMIS914]

Just curious but why would anyone with a good set of mains run their sub crossover above 100 Hz?? Maybe it's me but if I turn my sub crossover above 85-90 Hz on either sub it gets boomy/muddy and draws attention to itself.

My Point---What difference does it make what the internal crossover is set at in most AV receivers...

I am guessing that this would be important if you only run a single LFE signal cable and do not use line level (speaker level inputs) or are running a small satellite system. Am I right on this??

[boa12]

bloom, well got it goin & actually it sounds pretty great w/ just the sub out to 1 line level in (had a plug pin break off in the other line in plug, so when get that fixed i'll run the Y to both line ins. w/ the vel that doesn't increase output but does make the sub wake up more quickly).

tried the front preout to sub line in but not as much output as using the sub preout(that's what u mean by lfe out no?) & not getting the boominess on the music as w/ the sony. the 8000 sub out filter i guess works much better & of course the overall sound is better. 5 channel stereo was just what the doctor ordered to get those rear cornwalls to come alive. & overall the sound is so much more full & smooth.

just starting to program & learn the way around. HOW do u get that COPY light on the receiver display to go off?

was your ? bout kleg's set-up? his receiver has an active adjustable sub out filter (like i'm complaining that the marantz & many others DON'T have). so for music it(the receiver) cuts off the sub out at the lower frequency. but for lfe it's all sent to the sub out (no cut-off) & so then that's only cut by the sub crossover. so i was saying in his case he may as well turn the sub's crossover all the way up as lfe can go all the way to 120hz.

is not this bass mgmt. fun?

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster MCX Biwire/Bananas

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires/Bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[kleggatt]

Boa you should check out Outlaw audio's site. They are coming out with a product that will allow you to adjust the crossover frequency from you receiver or DVD player. I don't know much about it but the initials ICBM. It is an integrated controlled bass manager. It is for bass management for DVD-Audio players but you may be able to use it to solve your problems. Although running speaker wire to your sub from you main terminals is cheaper

[boa12]

kleg, thanks for info. i just don't like the idea of running speaker level to the sub. when u do that then the sub has to take an amplified signal & reduce it back to a preamp level signal & it just ain't as good as preamp line level. u know what i mean. these powered subs need a good preamp signal line level that's properly filtered by the receiver/preamp like these units you're referring to.

this marantz sounds great, but i'm thinking now i could get a unit w/ adjustable an adjustable sub preout, high current & pick up a pronto remote for the same price.

wonder, does the denon 3801 have truely adjustable sub out cut-off??? may have to look into that before 30 days are up. if when i get the line in plug in my vel cleared

out & still no good sub performance, this marantz is going back. i just won't settle for muddy bass on music because of these dam*

set in stone receiver sub out cut-off points.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster Standard Cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires/Bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[RossVTaylor]

Hiya, Boa.

I can't speak about the 3801, but my Denon 5800 doesn't have adjustable sub crossover points. I'm locked in at 80hz. Last year I had a couple of Pioneer Elite receivers (the 27 and 29TX) and they had multiple crossover points. I think, though, the the THX standards set (or encourage, anyway) an 80hz sub crossover point and most manufacturers seem to be going that way. Even my Denon...

Ross

[T2K]

boa, thats the word I got from another board member and Denon 3801 owner.Permanentely set at 80Hz.Double check that.

Keith

[boa12]

yea thanks guys - that's the way most are (except i hear my marantz is at an astronom set 100hz). i know i'm being real picky. it's just when i switch to 5 channel stereo for cds this sub should be cut-off much lower - 2much overlap w/ the klf-30 set to large (where they should be). i know, move the crossover down on the sub. problem there is all lfe goes to the sub-out & lfe goes all the way to 120hz so don't want to miss anything by having the sub cut that off. & i don't want to get up & switch the sub crossover in/out all the time.

i think the best way is set sub:no, not using the receiver bass mgmt & use the front preouts to the sub.

once i get that broken rca pin out of the L sub line in jack will give that a test. damn monster adapters. anybody know a way to get a broken pin out of a jack w/o taking the sub apart?

guess i'll stick w/ this marantz. i'll find a way to make the bass mgmt work for me for both music & ht. it really does sound great (smooth, tube-like) & the remote so far learns about anything from all the other(5) remotes. seems pretty close to a pronto.

one thing though is it just doen't seem real loud w/ dvd. i turn it all the way to 0db which is about 3/4 way on the scale & it's pretty loud but you'd think it'd earth shaking. is that good or is it just a log scale thing? like -30db is barely audible w/ a cd/dvd but real loud w/ the FM tuner.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster Standard Cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires/Bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[RossVTaylor]

Boa,

Regarding the bass management, I've got my Denon set up so that when I watch movies I'm using the sub, but when I listen to music the sub is off. It works very well for my setup - can you do that with yours, too? It might be worth a try.

As far as the broken pin goes, try screwing a small diameter sheet metal screw into the open/broken end of the pin (most are hollow). Drive the screw in gently and just enough to get a bite on the pin, then try pulling the screw and pin out with some pliers. It's better to risk pulling the screw out of the pin than driving the screw in too far. If the screw pulls out, you can always try again. But, if you drive the screw in too far (or it's too large) you'll wedge the pin even worse. If you can find the right screw, it will work.... trust in yourself... use the force Luke...

Ross

[boa12]

thanks rvt, i'll give that screw thing a try.

i'm not the handiest tool guy though

as for the sub off for music - the klf sound good but i need my sub for music. the vel is very musical just not so much above 60hz or so. gotta have that bass punch for music

[boa12]

rvt, no go on that broken plug. it's solid &

all i'm getting w/ the screwing is some shrapnel. looks like i'll have to lug this 100 lb beast in to the shop unless there's another way.

[BLOOMIS914]

Boa12- The copy light bugged me for about 3 months also. You need to go in to the set up menus and it is controlled when you select input source (I think)...For clear direction I called Marantz Tech service via the 800 number and it was fixed in less than three minutes.

Regarding output volume of the SR8000. We have very similar systems. I watch/listen to the TV at around -45 to -50 db in the 5-channel stereo mode. DVD's or VHS tapes in Dolby Pro Logic, Dolby Digital or DTS are set at about -25 Db.........THIS IS UNBELIEVABLY LOUD. My wife (who enjoys Music and HT) says "No louder than -25 db for movies" because explosions or scary bass impacts make her hit the roof!!

You need to go into the speaker level menu and setup all individual speakers(-10db to +10db) for each mode also. They are probably all set at the factory flat setting of 0 db. Mine are set up as follows:

KLF 30's(large) L=+7db, R=+9db

KLF-C7 (small) +8db

KSP-S6's (small L=+8db, R=+10db

If I turn up a DVD to any louder than -20db.....look out it is real loud. Only exception has been concert DVD's I run at around -15db. For plain 2-channel stereo or CD's -15db notifies all of my neighbors of the music I'm playing(I'm in a 2,500sq.ft. home on .5 acre lot)....-10 to -5db is reserved for 1-2 minutes of "listen to this!!!" for friends only. Normal guests would run for the hills at this point. And once or twice after several Margaritas I got it to +3db and saw a vision of PWK appear!! Those KLF-30's can pound!!

Good luck and give the Marantz time and make sure you have it set up properly regarding speaker sizes and levels before even thinking of trading it in for the 3801. It is truly a very warm and pure sounding piece.

[boa12]

thanks bloom. remembered reading that copy thing in the audioreview.com posts. changed that digital out to source & like u say - it gone.

thanks so much too on those levels. i still had all them on 0db. had only changed that lfe setting on DTS Music from -10 to off. sure when i up those channel levels that will make a BIG difference (still need to get that rat shack meter. guess u musta used a meter?). but at 0db i was turning it all the way up to volume 0 & that was bout my normal listenin level.

even finding my way around w/ the learning remote which is simply great. only problem so far w/ that is the sony dvdp has a

jog dial & not buttons for fast forward, etc.

don't know if the marantz remote will work there learning that thing.

i was just a lil peaved i think on that broken pin in my vel's L line in jack. until that's fixed can't test using the sub out vs.

front preouts/sub:no.

this unit's sound is just what i wanted & decided was best in my demoing. great tube like sound & the 5 channel stereo is amazing w/ also the cornwalls in rear.

& that's even w/ the sub going up to the 80-100hz range & the the levels @ 0db

i got some monster mcx2 biwires made up for the klf so that's the next project along w/ getting that sub fixed. also kinda eyeing their MA500 power amp. ever considered that?

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster Standard Cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires/Bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!