Daddy Dee Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Working on a Heresy fixer-upper project and am looking at a couple of options on crossovers and wondering which of these might be preferable.,.. E or E2? The E is the version with the large metal can type capacitors. I have read some posts on the forum about upgrading and tweaking Heresy crossovers. There seems to be consensus that building the ALK crossover for Cornwall or Heresy yields not as dramatic improvement as it does in La Scala, and with the Heresy's lesser value has trouble coming in as a feasible option, though I don't know what the cost of parts would be for the ALK option. In reading the earlier posts, I was seeing some ideas for upgrading parts and improving things with mods, but with me we need a special forum category called Odds and Mods for Dummies. Or the Idiots guide to Heresy upgrades. Any thoughts appreciated. These will end up being very nice, and I'd like to get the sound optimized as well. regards, Dee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 If you are referring to the network design, neither one is better. The E2 is just an E with a 33 uF cap added in the woofer circuit. The change was necessitated by the change to K-53-K squawker driver and K-22-K woofer. You need to use the appropriate one for your speaker. As far as the difference in caps goes, IMHO the film caps used in the E2 are superior to the paper in oil caps used in the earlier versions. Regardless of which kind you have, I think you would do well by replacing them with some nice, new polypropylene ones. Capacitor technology has improved considerably in the last 30 years. OTOH some folks prefer paper in oil. Just be aware that the ones used in the older Heresys, and the rest of the Heritage line, are nothing special, just motor caps. While you are playing with the crossovers, one other thing you might consider is replacing the 2.5 mH inductor with an air core one with equal or lower DCR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 The can types are oil filled, and tend to be a lossy -- especially over time, but most swear by them. Yes, the Cornwall Type B is similar to the Type E, and the ALK for the early Type B can be used in place of the Type E with little modification. I thought my Heresies sounded great as is, and I would suggest just replacing the old wire in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 < While you are playing with the crossovers, one other thing you might consider is replacing the 2.5 mH inductor with an air core one with equal or lower DCR. ---------------- [/blockquote> Malcom, Thanks for these thoughts. Yep, I was referring to the networks, and thinking that crossover and network were interchangeable terms, but I am learning. Which element is the 2.5 mH inductor. Also, could use a nudge where to find one. What is the DCR? Rank newbie help needed here. Dean, when you are talking about replacing wire, I need help there, too. Appreciate in advance translating this into Pre Kindergarten level of comprehension. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 On the Cornwall B network the inductor was labelled 2133. It looks just like the transformer, but without the taps. The auto-transformer is marked T2A or it could be the universal transformer with 3619 stamped on it. The inductor makes the most difference, use a solid wire inductor from Solen, not cheap, especially if you go to 12 awg wire, but worth it. Replacing the wire also works, anything is better than the thin wire that Klipsch put in the old Heresys and Cornwalls. Just replace it piece by piece so you don't get mixed up. The only change involves one of the taps on the auto-transformer, which some people swear by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Pardon my ignorance, but exactly what does the capacitor added to the E-2 do? Can an E-2 crossover be "retro-fitted" to an E by cutting the cap off? I'm just beginning a Heresy rebuild project and I've accumulated a pair of K-55s and E-2 crossovers. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 Thanks, y'all. Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Dee, go to the Upgrading Older Speakers, and 'Odds and Mods' sections of the forum and call out to Al Klappenburger. Also, he has schematics and instructions at his site -- I can't remember the darn link -- anyone? My personal opinion is to match the values up as close as possible -- especially the DCR. You want to improve the quality of the sound -- not change the voicing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Crossover network is the complete term. Sometimes we say crossover. Sometimes we say network. Same thing. Some folks refer to it as a balancing network. In any case, it routes the appropriate frequencies to the woofer, squawker and tweeter. If the components in the Heresy change significantly, as happened a few times over the life of the line, the crossover network has to change. Model C, D, E and E2 crossover networks were used at various times in the Heresy. You need to use the appropriate one for the woofer, squawker driver and tweeter you have. The inductor is the transformer like thing with two wires. It has a steel core which enables it to yield the same inductance with less wire than an air core inductor, sometimes referred to as a coil. Advantages are cost and size. Disadvantages are hysteresis and the possibility of saturation. Saturation limits the amount of power the inductor can transfer. If the designer selects the inductor properly, it will not be an issue. In the case of the Heresy and the rest of the Heritage series, saturation probably is not an issue. And if it does occur, it helps protect the woofer from failure at high power levels. Hysteresis on the other hand is an issue. Simply put, the output wave form is not exactly the same as the input wave form. And hysteresis results in some signal loss as well. So eliminating hysteresis is a good thing. Hysteresis is not an issue with air core inductors. DCR is direct current resistance. It is the resistance you get when you measure the inductor with an ohm meter. It is a function of the gauge and length of the wire used to construct the inductor. A 2.5 mH steel core inductor constructed with a given gauge of wire will have a lower DCR than an air core inductor constructed with the same gauge wire because the air core inductor requires more turns for the same inductance. So an air core inductor has to be constructed with larger wire, smaller gauge number, than the steel core inductor it is replacing for the same DCR. A general rule of thumb is to maintain the DCR when replacing inductors in a crossover network to avoid changing the sound of the speaker. The effect of the change will depend on how it is used in the crossover. In the case of the inductor in the Heresy, it is in series with the woofer. Lowering the DCR will increase the output of the woofer slightly, which is a good thing. OTOH you probably won't be able to hear the difference. Air core inductors can be found at any of the online retailers catering to speaker builders. PartsExpress and Madisound are two. One constructed with 12 gauge wire should have about the same DCR as the original inductor. 10 gauge would yield lower DCR but is bigger and more expensive. If you want to change the wire inside the speaker, go for it. It is a cheap change. Lots of folks do it. Just don't expect an audible change from the wire itself. The length of wire you see is infinitesimal compared to the wire in the voice coils, inductor, and autotransformer (the transformer like think with several wires connected to it). Paul Klipsch used 18 gauge zip cord in the Heritage series and thought it was fine. My guess is most of the change people hear, if there really is any, comes from fresh solder joints, fresh crimps, and tight screw connections that result from making the change. If you change capacitors, just keep the values the same (e.g. 2uF), and the voltage rating at least 50V (100V would probably be a better minimum). Go for +- 5% parts if you can get/afford them. I use Solen metallized film fast capacitors. But there are lots of other choices. Everyone has his own favorite capacitor technology and brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Malcolm, a great response. You might want to consider either the Hovland or Auricap for the capacitor, but they are substantially more costly than the Solen caps. They take a while to burn in, but do make a difference. If you check for Heresy in the search engine, you will find a pic of an E network with the two can, 2.0 uF capacitors, the inductor and the auto-transformer. I'm not sure who I got it from, but it is on my other computer. There are also several descriptions of the mods that are possible. www.alkeng.com is the link to Al's site. Check the left side and click on Klipsch. You can see what size the new inductor is (large red cylinder or wire). Remember this is for his new B or E network, not for a replacement of parts. You can simply replace each part directly, this is cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Thanks Malcom, I was too tired to go into some of the details. Thanks for the link Dflip. "Lowering the DCR will increase the output of the woofer slightly, which is a good thing. OTOH you probably won't be able to hear the difference." I just went though all of this Malcom, and learned some hard lessons. I just don't think I can agree with you here on this. Changing the DCR even a little, doesn't just increase the output level of the driver, but also changes the driver's relationship to the cabinet. It's the whole Q thing ya know. I turned my RF-7's into Cerwin Vegas by going from .3 to .016 The difference was monumental, and not for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Oh sh*t! Is Q back from the Continuum again? The Heresy and the RF7 are two different beasts. I wouldn't think of changing the DCR of the woofer inductors on the RF7. Why fix something that is not broken? The frequency response is already much flatter and more extended than that of the Heresy. The Heresy woofer, however, can use a little help. Heresy aren't very picky when it comes to matters of Q. I currently have Heresys from 1965 to 1978 and had some 1984s. The woofers' T/S parameters vary widely, yet they all sound pretty much the same. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the box is too small to start with. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that sealed designs are more forgiving than ported designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 18, 2003 Author Share Posted July 18, 2003 Malcom, Great post. This is one has to be a candidate for the best of FAQ forum. Thanks for the tutorial on crossovers. Regards, Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Now that you mention it, I do remember DJK saying something about sealed designs not being as sensitive to this change as ported -- that is probably it. Mind as well put a nice CFAC in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I'm still not sure what the 33uF cap soldered across the woofer terminals is supposed to do on the E-2 crossover. Should I cut it off to accomodate the K-55s? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The 33 uF cap increases the slope of the roll off of the woofer. I believe this was necessary because of the difference between the K-53-K and K-55-V rather than any difference between the K-22-K and earlier woofers. If so, removing it should be fine if you are going to use K-55-Vs. In any case, removing the 33 uF cap will turn a Type E2 network into a Type E. The only difference will be that it has film caps instead of paper in oil caps. If you have both, that would be good way to find out if you prefer one type of cap over the other, assuming you can hear a difference at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Thanks much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinnitus Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 I realize this post is about 18 years old, but has some great information still relevant today. Very informative, I enjoyed reading it (twice). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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