inframan Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Ok, its time to ask those that may know! I'm currently finishing my basement and I'm bulding in an area for a Home Theater. I have a pair of Klipsch KG 4.2's that I'll be using as my main speakers with RF-3 II center and rear effects. For now, a Yamaha RXV-850 will be driving things, but an updgrate to the RXV-2300 will be comining. So I have a two part question... First, which Reference series subwoofer would match up with the speakers I currently have? The 10 or 12 inch. I'm more interested in good solid base and low effect rather than bringing my house down. Second, how do the Klipsch subs maatch up against the SPL series from Velodyne? I got to hear the 10 inch SPL, and it was pretty nice. Of course it was in showroom conditions as well. The sales person said some Klipsch subs can be 'boom-y', but I find that hard to believe. Thanks for any information you can pass along! inframan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 The older subs (KSW's) do have a bit of a reputation for boomines, but the new Reference models seem to be much more linear. I don't think I've seen one complaint about them being boomy at all. Ten or twelve incher? Let your bank account be your guide! (You can't have too much sub!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 I think you should look into SVS. Many, many people on the forums have had excellent luck with them. Klipsch has not impressed me with their subwoofers. Cost-wise, you will probably come out far cheaper than RSW-10 or 12 as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 If you examine the shake value ratings versus the price in the excellent article http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html (Subwoofers Under the Christmas Tree - December, 2001 by Brian Weatherhead), you quickly see that, as the Stones rock classic says, you cant always get what you want. Weatherheads shake value shows how much subwoofer output you get at 20Hz. Twenty Hertz is the bottom of the human audible, but not sensory, frequency range, at loud sound pressure levels. His shake values start at the 70dB level at 20Hz. Each additional 10dB (doubling of SPL) of output at 20Hz is another shake value point. The lowly KSW-15 sub is a modest 1.7 shake points. The mighty Klipsch RSW-15 is 2.4, the grand daddy Velodyne HGS-18 is 3.1, while the SVS CS-Ultra tubes are incredible 3.9 shake points. The $28,000 Krell Master Reference subwoofer delivers an amazing 120dB at 20Hz, so its shake value is a fantastic 6 points. Dividing the sub price by its shake value points however, reveals quite an different story. Here, you see the other verse of the song; if you try sometimes, you get want you need. The subs retail price, divided by Weatherheads shake value, shows the price/performance ratio for subwoofers. It shows how much bang you get for your buck. Bargain The lowly KSW-15 sub is a bargain $440 for each shake point. You get a lot of output, though most of it is at 60Hz or higher, for relatively less money than any other sub in this comparison. The SVS CS-Ultra tubes are the next best price/performers, at $588 per point of performance. A glance at the frequency response chart shows that you get more low bass output from these models than any other sub compared here. The mighty Klipsch RSW-15 is third: $750 for their price/shake value ratio. Their chart shows that you get more punchy mid-bass than the others. While grand daddy Velodyne HGS-18 is $866 for each 10dB of output at 20Hz, it is cheap compared to the Krell. The Velodyne chart shows it is a very good across-the-board performer. The retail price of the monster rumble chest makes each point of its performance cost a whopping $4,666! More than ten times more expensive for each rumble of deep bass than a modest Klipsch KSW sub. I started with a clearance KSW200 (12) for $250 and I was very impressed with its value. It gave a lot of low-end boom for relatively little money. It is fine for many applications in small rooms. I added the smaller, deeper and punchier Klispch LF10 the ill-fated forerunner to the RSW series. Many loudspeakers, including the wonderful Classic Audio Reproductions Cinema Ensembles (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0503/classicaudio.htm) and the Klipsch classics, like the older Fortes, require subwoofer support below 50Hz. If you seek accurate and flat frequency response down into the deep bass regions, that is what many tweaking audiophiles need in a sub; the most output they can get below 50Hz, for the least amount of money. If you look at the frequency response charts in the article, you will see the most output below 50Hz is from the SVS CS-Ultra tubes, followed by the copper-cone Klipsch RSW-15. Of the two, the big SVS tubes are the better value. They give more deep output for less money. What you dont want though, for flat and deep bass accuracy, is lots of output above 50Hz - that would intrude on your loudspeakers mid-bass and color the mid-range. Excess output in that area is boomy, mushy and indistinct; it muddies the sound. For that, you need a sub which falls away quickly in its mid and upper-bass response. Going back to the chart, the ONLY sub which does that is the lowly Klipsch KSW-15. Yet, this sub has most of its output at 56Hz (on my KSW200, the frequency response chart peaks at 60Hz). For the musical and movie punch of mid-bass, which is more noticeable and possibly more enjoyable than merely accurate deep bass, you want lots of push. The greatest output in this area is the grand daddy Velodyne HGS-18, followed by the better value (shake value/price) of the Klipsch RSW-15. In fact, the RSW is number two, both for the deepest output and for the most mid-bass output. In this limited subwoofer comparison, the Klipsch RSW-15 is the ONLY sub to score well on both lists. This means it is the best choice amongst this limited list for the deep musical accuracy and high movie thrills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 The Velodyne is a great sub. In one of the lastest home theater magazines they auditioned 10 subs and the 15" velodyne scored the best ($600). No Klipsch subs were in that catagory. I think the older Klipsch sub can be boomy but you can also make adjustments to reduce that effect. Sub placement is critical and can effect My 2 cents is that the current RSW lines are overpriced for what you get. I have not heard or priced the new RW lines that may provide more value for your money. My opinion is also that you can never have too much sub. If you can swing it, go for the 12" and better yet go for the 15". You can always turn it down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 Colin, You were typing your response as I was typing mine. I think your summary is about as good as I have read in a while...Makes me want to reconsider the RSW line, or a SVS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inframan Posted August 8, 2003 Author Share Posted August 8, 2003 Thank you all for the great information! I really appreciate everything that was sent. Since this area is in my basement, I'll have carpet with pad on a concrete floor, so I'm looking more to have a forward firing sub. I'll be heading over to the SVS site to see their offerings, and trying to find a store in town that has the Klipsch 12 inch up and running! I'll keep you all posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 In the $600 price range the yet to be issued Klipsch RW-12 seems to be able to take all comers, esp the Velodyne CT-120. I'd give it a listen before buying. That said, there is no such thing as too much subwoofer (just turned up too loud). The subs (2) I use each occupy about the same volume as a small chest freezer; there's no success like excess! I recently discovered the system is 3.8 dB below 1000 Hz at 16 Hz! I'd have never know had the meter not moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Stay away from KSW series subs,they ARE BOOMY and COLOR SOUND too much.RSW subs are clean and have amazing punch,they however lack very deep bass prowess(the RSW15 is quite ok). Velodyne CHT are also weaklings down deap and they dont compare well to RSW subs as far as clean bass punch is concerned.Velodyne HGS series are clean and dig deep with good power,the flaw with HGS they are a bit too expensive for most audiophiles to consider. In Velodyne HGS18 price range there is a formidable competitor the Revel B15 this beast diggs deep and hits harder then even the RSW15.Its parametric EQ makes it the most musical as well as the most adaptable sub in the lot.And when you hear its brute force,SVS no longer sounds so powerful. Yes SVS,the most deep bass per dollar short of DIY.After having dual SVS Ultras matched with a Carver TFM-75 I can say LOUD AND CLEAR its the most DEEP BASS under $5000 you can buy(non DIY)*. *Ahem the B4-Plus is out and its the new SPL king,and with the Adire Pinnacle series EVEREST you also have a fearsome B4-Plus competitor. Note I have heard and own almost all the subs above,Revel B15,Aerial SW12,Velodyne HGS18,Velodyne SPL1000,two Carver Knight Shadow,Sunfire Super Junior/Mark II/Signature,PolkAudio PSW404,Klipsch RSW10 and 15.I need to get the B2-Plus with Ultra woofers....and crown it all with a B4-Plus Ultra version if it ever come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffgeorge Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 "Since this area is in my basement, I'll have carpet with pad on a concrete floor, so I'm looking more to have a forward firing sub." I would not worry about the SVS being a down firing design. There is a plate on the bottom, so that the bass energy does not go straight to the carpet. I would dare say that the carpet would not absorb any more bass material with an SVS as it would with any front-firing configuration. Quick question for The Ear... What in the world do you do for a living? I wish I could afford all those goodies. Santa must give you a nice income in the "off season". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Low frequencies are omnidirectional so it doesn't matter if you have carpet, rock, plywood, concrete, stones, magic platforms, etc. Floor coverings do not diminish low frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 jeffgeorge, No I dont work for Santa,many hours of setting up computers,building servers, and setting up networks pays a bit.Audio is my relaxation,my getaway from the long hours at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 The KSW subs are boomy, the RSW subs are not. According to the few that have heard them, the new Klipsch RW subs appear to be good subs as well. Colin, That's an interesting cost/shake factor analysis, but throwing Krell MRS in their is useless because the measurements aren't taken under the same conditions(equipment, mic position, sub position, same room). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsacco Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Has anyone heard of a company called Home Theater Direct. I was wondering if anyone has tested their Level 3 and Level 4 subwoofers against the Klipsch KSW series to see how they stack up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Cost/shake factor ? No mention of the aura bass shakers, clark tactile sound transducers, the guitammand buttkicker2. Granted these are not subwoofers, but a useful addition to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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