sivadselim Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 thanks! your other link that i had to it had died, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Yeah, I was deleting my email account from cox and didnt' realize that my webspace account went along with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 2, 2005 Share Posted July 2, 2005 Is this thread old or what! Oldie but goodie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Fabulousfrankenstein lives... Thanks for the update... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 One little note for you guys looking for a good deal on a sub. Tweeter is selling the Mirage OMNIS12 for $399 this weekend. This is almost an exact copy of the Energy S12.3 which has been Nousained and is only 7 down from the top...not bad for a $399 sub. It's the same price in the store or on the website: http://www.tweeter.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2018471&cp=&keywords=mirage+subwoofer&searchId=10417828910&parentPage=search If you buy it on the website, you can still return it in the store as well. Regards, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Thanks for the list, but I'm confused about some of the data, particularly the frequency response data compared with the chart of db at stated frequencies. For instance, lets look at the first Velodyne sub on the chart. It is stated that it produces 107.6 db at 25 Hz and 114.8 at 30 Hz, yet the 'response' states that the speaker is rated at 25-100 Hz at +/- 2.4 db. My math gives the difference of 114.8 and 107.6 as 7.2 db, a MUCH ROUGHER response curve that shown. Am I looking at apples and oranges? Note that most of the manufacturers 'sweeten' their response curves by rating their speakers at a carefully selected lower frequency, say 28 Hz, to eliminate reporting a sharp falloff around 25Hz. If one is purchasing a subwoofer for the purposes of reproducing the lowest octaves of music, wouldn't one expect a fairly even response, like that of the main loudspeakers? Even the LaScala, with a pretty bumpy curve, is fairly rated at 45-17kHz +/- 5 db. Is a rough response curve more easily tolerated in the lowest bass regions? If many of the listed subwoofers were rated from their normal cutoff down to 20Hz (the 'lowest' standard octave), they would seemingly have to report horrible numbers like +/- 10 db! Is this acceptable? Additionally, is it common practice to crossover subs at 60 Hz instead of the THX standard 80 Hz? I am all in favor of lower low pass crossover points, as I like as much information as possible left in the mains. However, if many users click the THX crossover point, they will be further distorting the lowest 3 OCTAVES of information by sending it to the speaker system with the worst response curve. Thanks, just my observations, might not be worth a hoot. I need to upgrade my ksw12 (I know, I know), as it just doesn't keep up with my all-Cornwall system. I do send my LFE to sub+mains and that seems to help a bit. I need this data, but want to be able to rely on it for my purchase decision. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 ---------------- On 7/4/2005 8:50:29 AM colterphoto1 wrote: Thanks for the list, but I'm confused about some of the data, particularly the frequency response data compared with the chart of db at stated frequencies.... Am I looking at apples and oranges? ---------------- Yes it is apples and oranges Tom Nousaine's numbers are measurements in HIS room and these only reflect the sub's performance in that room. The manufactures published numbers are measured in an anechoic chamber and these represent the sub's performance without any room effects. Given how much a room affects bass frequencies, neither of these numbers will reflect the subs performance in our rooms. The beauty of Tom's numbers are two fold... One is the fact that his numbers are provided by a third party with the absence of a marketing staff whom will give the numbers their "spin". The second is that many can be compared to each other given the fact that the numbers are obtained used the same methodology and were performed in the same room. Actually Tom has been testing subwoofers for many years for numerous magazines... during which he has changed room a couple of times. That is why Frank has divided the numbers into groups, performed in the same room. This makes it easier to compare the tests with similar room gain with each other. If your room resembles Tom's you can achieve similar performance. ---------------- It is stated that it produces 107.6 db at 25 Hz and 114.8 at 30 Hz, yet the 'response' states that the speaker is rated at 25-100 Hz at +/- 2.4 db. My math gives the difference of 114.8 and 107.6 as 7.2 db, a MUCH ROUGHER response curve that shown. .... ---------------- Oh... BTW, a 7.2db variation is actually pretty good compared to the LaScalas... given it's ±3.6db compared to ±5db... ---------------- Additionally, is it common practice to crossover subs at 60 Hz instead of the THX standard 80 Hz? I am all in favour of lower low pass crossover points, as I like as much information as possible left in the mains. However, if many users click the THX crossover point, they will be further distorting the lowest 3 OCTAVES of information by sending it to the speaker system with the worst response curve. ---------------- Not really "common" practice but there isn't a large difference between 60Hz and 80Hz. After all, if you have a 12db/octave crossover and you are looking at about ½ octave... you are talking about 6db attenuation difference. It won't be devastating in either case IMHO... In any case, that KSW has to go... What's you budget? We can make plenty of suggestions... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Thanks for clarifying Rob. Now I understand. I dunno, I usually listen at -20db ref on my Yamaha receiver. Actually I'm not at all unhappy with the KSW, just that it will probably move to the basement with my secondary RB5II/RC7 system which it's more balanced for. What would be appropriate for the all-Cornwall 5.1 system? I don't use sub for music, just movies. Budget not terribly tight but maybe $500-$700? Thanks Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted July 4, 2005 Share Posted July 4, 2005 Colter, I know you can pick up an awesome Bose Bass Module for around that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 5, 2005 Share Posted July 5, 2005 ---------------- On 7/4/2005 2:12:14 PM colterphoto1 wrote: What would be appropriate for the all-Cornwall 5.1 system? ---------------- That's a nice 5.1 system... I think your sub should be of the same caliber. ---------------- I don't use sub for music, just movies. ---------------- Maybe because you haven't had a sub which is on par with your mains? I used Cornwall as my mains for a while, and definitely preferred them with a sub for music and movies. I know your more of a classic rocker, but even some of that music has material below the ± 40Hz rolloff of the Cornwalls. The way I see it, why miss the lowest octave(s)... if the music has no content in that frequency range, the sub will just sit silently and no harm is done. ---------------- Budget not terribly tight but maybe $500-$700? ---------------- I know you mentioned you don't listen to them very loud (you sure about that?) but the more sub, the better. 700$ isn't a lot of money for a sub as the Klipsch RSW subs and the THX ultra-II subs are well out of that price range... leaving only the lonely Klipsch Sub12 if you want a new Klipsch sub. If you are willing to look to other brands, you have the SVS PB12-Plus or even better the SVS PB12/2 ISD. If you are willing to build your own sub, or buy used, there are other options... but you know how that slope goes... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 It's been a while since I last updated my list. The address has been changed since I no longer have webspace w/Cox. It is now up to date after almost 1.5 years. NOUSAINE LIST Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Thought I'd mention the RT-12d is on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I find some of the numbers rather interesting...especially in light of the huge room that he's testing in. I think in a larger room one would greatly benefit from using multiple subs. So if you measured every sub in a 3500 cubic foot room, then you'd get the same performance with two of those subs in a 7000 cubic foot room. If you take the inverse by taking a sub that performs well in a 7000 cubic foot room and placing it into a 3500 cubic foot room, then you're going to end up with way way too much gain at the low-end. In such a situation it would be vital to have boundary gain compensation. There are definitely some very wierd things going on in that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 This list is seriously missing top of the line subs,too many are missing. Where is the SVS Ultra,the HSU VTF3HO, JL Fathom f113,Revel B15,Aerial SW12,Velodyne HGS18 or DD18,ACI Maestro,no Danley Labs subs!!! Contra Bass...?? ...where are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 This list is seriously missing top of the line subs,too many are missing. Where is the SVS Ultra,the HSU VTF3HO, JL Fathom f113,Revel B15,Aerial SW12,Velodyne HGS18 or DD18,ACI Maestro,no Danley Labs subs!!! Contra Bass...?? ...where are they? To the best of my knowledge, Nousaine hasn't tested any of the subs you've listed. The JL F112 was tested though. If anyone has any measurements of subs that TN has measured let me know and I'll add them to the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 To the best of my knowledge, Nousaine hasn't tested any of the subs you've listed. The JL F112 was tested though. If anyone has any measurements of subs that TN has measured let me know and I'll add them to the list. I know,and why are top contenders kept out of these tests? Fishy at best,I am sure Nousaine could get his hands on any sub he wishes for testing. Also the Paradigm Servo 15 v.2 should be listed,a serious sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Tahnks for posting the update. I think it's largely meaningless. The list is about output, that's pretty much it imho. Number 2 on the list is +/- 8 db??? There is not even a footnote for the other charts at the end of the list, looks like only averaged output was measured? btw, I have Klipsch KA1000 + 2x KW120 now. I'm done shopping subs. These babies are MUSICAL. I don't know how you measure that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Musicality is measured by your own ears,when you can listen to your favorite music and enjoy each note ,losing yourself,traveling in the magical world of sound...you found musical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 Musicality is measured by your own ears,when you can listen to your favorite music and enjoy each note ,losing yourself,traveling in the magical world of sound...you found musical. Thank you sir, it's nice when someone else understands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 lol Colter, you're a riot! Surely you want a KSW-300 over your Ultra2's that didn't even make it on the list... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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