chinoloco Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I know alot of people have SACDs here and some have DVD-Audio Players. Since I have 2 systems, I was thinking to get two Hybrid players, one really nice one for the family room and if I could get away with it, a slightly cheaper one for the bedroom. My two systems are below so if you need to take a look. I am so far most interested in the Pioneer Elite 47Ai for the FR and the Pioneer Elite 45A for the BR. From the specs, they don't look like much difference. Does this compare well to the Denon 2900 and the Yamaha 2300? Some websites have the Pioneer 47Ai at 570.00 and the 45A at 313 which means i can get them both for the same price as a denon 2900 which is very tempting. I do like Pioneer Elite stuff as a i have VSX-45 and 43 TX. Any replies would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Depends on what your decision criteria are? Incredible picture quality? Audio? etc... If you're keen on picture quality, have you read the shootout at Secrets of Home Theater? DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 I have read the shootouts... Like most people, I probably have seen the "chroma" bug and never even realized it. I would like a good quality picture, but I have tried several DVD players including the Denon 900 with the Faroujda DCDi Chip. Its really hard for me to see the difference as I do not have two of the same DVD movie so its hard to do a comparison. I thought I would notice more on the RPTV, but in all honesty, the improvements were very hard for me to see. Maybe the picture was a little less fuzzy as the DCDi is supposed to fill in for the jaggedness. Maybe I am not a videophile... I have been able to see stuff that was not de-interlaced and was interlaced at Good Guys, so I thought I knew what I was looking for, but that was with a CenterStage CS-HD de-interlacer/upscaler. The Focus CS-HD was a huge difference. The Faroudja DCDi was a little dissappointing. I have seen the Denon 2900 and it didn't appear much different from the Denon 900 or any other Progressive Scan DVD player. I don't think its my cables as I am using good quality Acoustic Reseach Component Video cables. I do want a universal player that will be flexible. One thing I liked about the 47Ai is the 3 years of software updates. I am new to DVD-A and SACD, so I do not yet understand all the complaints about "Bass Management" or those issues. Its rare I mess with any effects on my Reciever. I always listen to CDs via "Source Direct" so its just taking stuff of the CD. I do have to admit, it was fun to messing around with some music using the Dolby Pro Logic II music on the AVR and thats what got me interested in SACD and DVDA in the first place. I wonder how accurate can they record and replay the spacing and not have the mixing do a sampling and cut off much of the sound spectrum like regular CDs. I guess my question is more like.. is it really worth it to pay $900 for a denon 2900 or yamaha dvd-S2300? Is there another "universal" or hybrid player out there that people recommend? From the reviews on Audioreview.com, the 2900, the 2300 and the 47Ai are all the same. I guess if i haven't seen the "Chroma" bug by now.. I will never see since I watch so many DVDs movies.. or maybe because all my DVD players have it, I haven't seen anything without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I think the Pioneers you mentioned would do a pretty good job.My answer to the comparison is you get what you pay for.The Yamaha is superior to either Pioneer,the Denon is superior to the Yamaha,The Marantz 8400 is slightly better in audio than the Denon,video on Denon slightly better,BUT $600 cheaper.This is only my take in auditions,anyone may disagree.If you spend x dollars you will get similar quality but some may not have that one feature you really like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauRus Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 A word of caution: I tried many of the universal players that were mentioned above and so far decided to wait since all of them have issues of their own. Sonically I preferred Denon DVD2900 to Pioneer units. Video wise, again Denon seemed to do a much better job, but be warned - if your TV has a 4:3 ratio Denon will display jagged edges on many high contrast objects in case you will set it up to work in 4:3 PS or 4:3 LB. The Silicon Image deinterlacer does not do a decent job scaling the 16:9 images. In my case after a few weeks of trying this player I still had to return it mainly because of this issue. My concerns were confirmed by the guys from HometheaterHiFi site. I have never seen the Yamaha unit, but I noticed that there are almost no complaints about it on the forums like HometheaterSpot or AVS Forum. There are a few new universal players coming to the market this fall, many of them will have DVI out (for video). So it might be worthwhile to wait a bit. But if none of this is important to you, why don't you just get a couple of Pioneer DV563A universal players from Best Buy $171.99@unit. Reportedly they have a decent video picture but at this price range they had to make a few compromises in the audio department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 I guess I was drawn to the 47Ai and the 45A because of the Burr-Brown DACs they were using. Everyone seems to think that these DACs produce great sound. I am just using a cheap JVC DVD Player to play CDs right now, so I think I will notice a huge difference right away. Some of the reviewers at Audioreview.com said some tweaking was needed to get the optimal performance out of the pioneers. I guess I am returning to my love of music. (go figure, I like music again after selling my bose system.. lol) Since I have a family budget to stick to, I want to get the best bang for buck since I still have to worry about the Wife Approval Factor and this just seems like the way to go. I guess the other thing is I was thinking to match my equipment because I am already using Pioneer Elite AVRs. I have all matched speakers so maybe I am a little crazy, but I was thinking to match as many of the components as possible, as long as the performance is acceptable... Maybe even a new pioneer elite HDTV in a few years... to match the rest of the stuff. It does stand to reason the maybe a Denon DVD would have its best performance with a denon AVR. I could be wrong on that, but I am sure all these companies optimize their products to work the best with their own complementary products, even if the difference is minimal. I mean, even Klipsch recommends you have the same speaker line to match tonal quality of the speakers to get optimal sound... there might be something to that. I think I am going to bite the bullet and try the two Pioneers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 ---------------- I could be wrong on that, but I am sure all these companies optimize their products to work the best with their own complementary products, even if the difference is minimal. I mean, even Klipsch recommends you have the same speaker line to match tonal quality of the speakers to get optimal sound... there might be something to that. ---------------- True, but I think timbre matching of speakers is much more important than component brand matching. Afterall, the engineers for the AVR department may very well not be the same folks who do the dvd players, plasmas, etc. I think part of the beauty of going seperates as opposed to HTIB is precisely for that reason. To mix and match the brands to achieve the best system you can, where each component compliments the other. That said, don't forget that the Pioneer Elite 47Ai won Product of the Year at the HE2003 Rave awards. It can also be purchased for $635 on soundpros. Dunno if you wanna go internet though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 I don't mind buying through the 'Net. the 47Ai is priced at 571.00 at hometheaterphiles.com, the place where I got my VSX45-TX and KSW-10 Sub. The DV-45A is at 313.00 which is very tempting at those prices to get both players at the same price as a 1 Denon 2900 player. You are right about separates. Usually you want to get the best performance from the best product so you mix and match. I guess I was thinking along the lines on how you buy speakers.. This is really good. None of my friends and no one at work is in same situation as me. I enjoy reading the advice and feedback here in the klipsch forum. thanks to everyone so far. Either everyone I know is still using TV speakers (many), Bose or Sony crap(many people) or has a $30,000 Audiophile system ($2700-$5000 for a TT cartridge? yikes!!)) and cannot relate to what I am looking for which is great sound and video at a price that doesn't rival the price of a BMW. I am not knocking these people, its just its hard to talk to them. On one hand.. you have the audiophile that thinks digital media is like the devil and will only buy vinyl because if its not analog then its a disease affecting Mankind. On the other hand, you have those who look at me and say ... "$500 for a dvd player? Why can you get a Apex one for 50.00? I thought Bose are the best speakers in the world!? What is a klipsch?" Very frustrating out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I totally relate. I don't know anybody that has heard of lexicon, krell, parasound, rotel, etc. I mean heck, they have BARELY heard of denon, b&w, klipsch, etc. whenever they watch movies at my place, they always ask me - wow, i didn't know this cd/dvd was recorded so good. i want to slap them. i want to tell them "no you idiot! it's not the $20 cd! it's the damn system fooL!" basically, that's why these online forums are so great. cause you learn so much from all these older smart guys, and then you can in turn use it, pass it on to others, or play mind games with sales people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 a couple of months ago i was in your shoes, i had in house the 45a, 47a1, the 2900, and the s2300, plus a few sony models that dont even deserve a mention, the sound on the pioneers is really good, but the chroma bug still hangs on, and can be seen when viewing highly color saturated movies, plus there were diagonal lines coming from both models. the yammy, and denon were great. i prefered the yammy sound better, but the denon just seemed better built, and easier to use, so i went denon, it plays so well, not 1 problem after 100's of hours of play in all formats the 47a1, s2300, 2900 all cost the same, so it was a natural choice to go with a player that did not have the chroma bug, but the 45a would make an excellent 2nd player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 ---------------- On 8/21/2003 4:48:20 AM nicholtl wrote: I totally relate. I don't know anybody that has heard of lexicon, krell, parasound, rotel, etc. I mean heck, they have BARELY heard of denon, b&w, klipsch, etc. whenever they watch movies at my place, they always ask me - wow, i didn't know this cd/dvd was recorded so good. i want to slap them. i want to tell them "no you idiot! it's not the $20 cd! it's the damn system fooL!" basically, that's why these online forums are so great. cause you learn so much from all these older smart guys, and then you can in turn use it, pass it on to others, or play mind games with sales people. ---------------- Hilarious. I can imagine going into Best Buy, listening to the salespeople outright lie to those prospective BOSE buyers and you walk up, cut right in and tell people that BOSE is the worst POC out in the market? People don't realize that how much sound can be packed on a CD (of course still limited versus all the other media). I personally have Good Guys (West Coast Chain)to blame/thank because they carried Klipsch/Denon/Parasound and demonstrated to me what was truly possible instead of the Best Buy solution of SONY/BOSE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 i prefered the yammy sound better, but the denon just seemed better built, and easier to use, so i went denon, it plays so well, not 1 problem after 100's of hours of play in all formats the 47a1, s2300, 2900 all cost the same, so it was a natural choice to go with a player that did not have the chroma bug, but the 45a would make an excellent 2nd player---------------- I agree, I liked the build of the Denon, it does look rugged enough. I guess I would buy the Denon too if the prices were the same. I guess since the 47Ai will be replaced soon, its almost half of the price of the Denon on the 'Net so thats what so tempting. I want to ask you a question since you have used all the players...Do you use Optical or Digital Coaxial? Have you notice any difference between the two? I have both types and was wondering if you notice any difference? I cannot tell on my cheap JVC player. Also, what do you use for SACDs? I heard that SACDs on all the players cannot be channeled through the Optical or Digital Coaxial cables. I guess the the only digital medium is the iLink cable ( no wonder since iLink is Sony's name for Firewire and Sony is big behind SACD). Is this true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Well sony and philips are big into SACD because they invented it. that's why their players don't feature dvd-a, while all other universal players do. that's why i think a uni-player from something like pioneer, denon, or whatever is more worth it. as for connectivity, sacd and dvd-a can only be connected via 5.1 multichannel analog outputs...due to copying restrictions or what not. as for what is better, coaxial or optical, if you do searches on any A/V forum i'm sure you'll discover heated debates. personally i always used toslink optical cause i figured "light" was more pure. until i tried a high quailty thx ultra monster cable coaxial. my goodness, coaxial is the way to go man. but your ears might tell you differently. try em both out, return the loser. i too like goodguys, and buy my klipsch's from them...but thats only cause the salesperson i do business with actually cares about his work and takes time to learn about the products. just the other day i was in there to audition a velodyne sub and to give some mission audio speakers a listen, and i started looking at how they had their parasound c1, a51, and a21 hooked up. this pompous old salesman struts up to me (this was in the private demo room btw) and takes a look at me (22 years old), my raggedy clothes, and is like "ehh, can i help YOU sir?" so i ask him "yes, between the c1 and c2, i understand there are several more I/O and the addition of an LCD screen, but does the lcd screen display all of the input media, through s-video and component? also, what is the difference regarding the two units' power supplies. are there any notable sonic differences between these two prepros?" this guy goes to the back on the unit and starts saying "uh...well there are XLR inputs, 7 digital inputs...and goes on about things totally unrelated to my stupid question. once my salesperson came in to the room this other guy swiftly left. i think he just felt stupid. well good riddance to him! btw chinoloco, i notice you have both the 45tx and 43tx. impressive. i want 2 eilte receivers. i'm jealous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 hehe... don't be. I got the VSX-TX43 for $459.00 from this guy at unitedonlineshopping.com. I guess I bidded on one of their auctions on E-Bay and even though I lost, they came back to me and offered it at 459.00 (the winning price)plus shipping and tax since I am in california. Not a bad deal, 512.00 out the door. Its cheap to buy the 45TX/43TX right now because the 55TXi/55TX/53TX just came out. To be honest with you.. The 43-TX is no slouch compare to the 45TX but I am a little jaded towards the 45TX because I like the 45TX's remote with the LCD display and I like the Automatic Acoustic Calibration Setup that the 45TX has. The 43TX does not have either of these features. Other than that, they are the same. The inputs, the weight of the box, the metal door in the front. the specs are nearly identical. Just do not get the VSX-41TX. Its a much weaker system. The distortion is much higher and the build is not as good. The front door is plastic. The sound for music just does not compare to the higher up numbered models. But having said all of that, if you truly want to get a second Pioneer Elite AVR, get the 55TXi and "iLink" that SACD player baby!!! Its already on my christmas wishlist. I found it for $1099.00 on the 'Net. http://www.unitedonlineshopping.com/pionelvsmuld.html So for SACD and DVD-A, you are using 6 pairs of RCA Audio cables huh? looks like I need more cables, damn it. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinoloco Posted August 29, 2003 Author Share Posted August 29, 2003 Well I guess I will be able to hear SACDs for the first time next week. Pioneer Elite DV45A was ordered. kinda exciting to check out the new formats. I guess if I am really pleased, I will spring for the 47Ai or its replacement for christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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