Yamaha 2300 w/ RF 15 or RF 25

[HT Rookie]

Hi all

I am buying a new set up and moving my old stuff to the Family room. I am purchasing a new Mitsubishi 55" TV, Yamaha RX-V2300, and I have been torn between the B&W 600 series speakers and the Klipsch Reference series. The Yamaha will pump out 110 watts per channel and I was looking at the RF-15 and RF-25 for fronts, RB-25 or RF-35 for the rears with 2 RC-25's, one front center, and the other rear center. And to complement the system, the RW-10 subwoofer. The room I am creating is only 11 feet wide and 15 feet long, so I like the RF-15's for that room, but I am concerned that the RMS for those speakers is only 100 watts and it may not be able to handle the 110 watts put out by the yamaha. Also, the RB-25 has a RMS of 75 watts. Am I looking at the wrong speakers, or can the RF-15 and RB-25 really handle the Yamaha's 110 watts per channel cleanly. The store I went to had the RF-15, RC-25 and RS-25 playing on a Denon AVR 2803 and it sounded good, but the Denon has more highs than a Yamaha receiver and I think it is better for Music than Movies

I have an old set of Klipsch Synergy and like the sound of Klipsch, but B&W is also a very good sounding speaker.

Someone please give me some convincing advice or reasons to stay with the Reference series

[marksdad]

in that price range klipsch is better, more revealing....., the b&w dont really start to shine until they get into the pricier models, but klipsch is klipsch, of course the 35's or rf 5's sound better than the 15's, and do not worry about the "rms" for that room, or those speaks, you will never pusch them to the limit, if i push my system anywhere close to 100watts it is so damn loud it is uncomfortable. just remember loud does not mean good, just loud

[Beesley]

I did some serious B&W auditioning about 4 months ago (Yes curiosity got the best of me and I wanted to experieince first hand what B&W is all about). I am used to klipschs aggressive sound and used that as the basis of comparison. Took some Mary Chapin Carpenter, Metallica, Disturbed, Creed, Mariah, Diana Krall, and Eagles Hell Freezes Over (DTS)..also Starwars Episode 1.

The 600 S3 had a very nice mid range, even for the size, with a warm all around sound....but way to reserved and laid back in my opinion. I just couldn't get them to "wow" me. When used as a direct radiating surround they obviously contributed to the overall ambience but I felt they were still missing something.

The LCR 600S3 was a bit more agressive, cleaner overall, and gave more of a punch (larger cabinet, drivers etc)....but not for the price

603S3 and 604S3 sounded very nice, again I wouldn't pay the 1100-1400 per pair it seemed like most stores I went to were charging (for the 604S3). I was very impressed however by the Studio 60 from Paradigm, kind of like a mix between Klipsch and B&W (atleast that what my ears told me) But at that price might as well get a better speaker and lay down the plastic on some RF-5 or RF-7.

Never heard the rf-15/25 but did listen to the RF-35. Felt every kick of the drum (didn't miss a single beat with disturbed). The imaging, clarity, and REALNESS(just made that word up by the way) on Diana Krall's and Mariah Carey's voice was unbelievable.

Thought the RF-35 system bested the 604 S3 system for Home theater.

Klipsch makes a great speaker, floor standing and bookshelf, for good prices. Both are great companies but I would rather put money towards klipsch than B&W. Unless you start getting into the Nautilus 800 Series, and even then for the money you would have to spend......and I feel even they are a bit to laid back. All B&W speakers were auditioned through Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXI and Denon 4802. All Klipsch were auditioned through Denon 4802 and Paradigm was listened through a Yamaha DSP-AZ1.

Sold KSF-10.5, Ksf-C5, and Ksf-S5

Currently have 1 KLF-C7 and waiting on a pair of KLF-20s

[odye]

I'll share my recent experiences, fwiw.

I started out looking for a "entry-level" pair

of Klipsch front speakers because one of my 10-year

old NHT speakers died. I looked a Klipsch mostly because

of how impressed I was by their ProMedia line, which I

had gotten to hear a couple of times.

I plan on holding on to my NHT center and subwoofer speakers

until I could afford to purchase rest of the matching

klipsch. I planned on only using these for home theater,

and using the 2 new klipsch on their own for straight

music listening. I'm forgoing surrounds until I find

a way to include them in my room that satisfies the wife. : )

I first started with they Klipsch speakers at Best Buy,

(a hard place to demo, for sure, but I was only looking

for relative differences between the klipsch models)

There I decided the SF-2 was the best speakers. I just

didn't want them in black, because of the wood floors in

our famliy room, and thought it would look better. Which

brought me to the Reference series, because of their cherry

wood finish. I found an authorized Klipsch in my area, and

they had a nice demo room to sample the RF-15/25/35

The RF-15 seems to match the SF-2 the most. They sounded

incredibly bright to me. Yeah, they were very clear, but

I found it on the edge of annoying. The rf-25's filled

things out, at a loss of some clarity, but felt more

warm, at least. So neither were an immediate 'Yeah, thats it'

So I bring the wife back, who knows nothing about tech,

but has a music degree and knows what she wants in a speakers

performance. She didn't care for anything except for the

RF-35's, of course. : ) But that was pushing our budget.

I really didn't want to go over $600 for a pair.

So that left klipsch as a dead end. I forget where, but I

saw some mention of B&W, so I start to do a little research,

and it all looks wayt o pricey, but it turns out there is

a high-end store a couple of miles away, so I figured what

the heck, drag the wife there, and we'll check it out,

just for reference. This store is a custom-install store

kind of place, so we felt a little out of place knowing our

budget. The sales guy was pretty haughty at first, also, which

didn't help, but he warmed up after he could tell we had been

doing some research and hunting around.

He sampled the 604's for us, and then the 601's. The 604's

sound great, and comparable the the RF-35's, my wife thought.

The 601's didn't sound too good. Then I spotted the 600's

and asked to hear those.

Bingo! We had a winner. An amazing sound for the size of the

package. Even the bass. Came in a wood finish, small size, which

was really our preferred, but I had convinced myself floor-standing

was needed for the full sound. All for $300 for the pair.

Half the price of the RF-15's. I think a previous poster mentioned

"too laid back" which I could see. I found the klipsch "too in your face",

also know as 'bright', I think. I think they both had the same clarity.

I expect someday, when the budget increases, the 600's

will be relegated to surrounds or bedroom speakers. So they

fit well in a 'grow your system' view for me.

So there is our 2cents. The speakers with the wood finish

we wanted weren't in stock and are on order, so I can't tell

you for certain how it will all ho until I get them installed

and listen to them for a while.

I'll be buying a reciever too, my Nakamichi AV-1 is nice, but

doesn't have Dolby Digital or optical connects.

I think I've setteled on a Yamaha, but not sure what.

I may take the $300 saved and put it towards a higher end receiver,

in (vain?) hopes to future proof that purchase. So I'm looking

at the Yamaha 5660 or the RX-V1400, perhaps. I'm not in a

rush for the receiver upgrade, I think the Nak will do for a while.

I'm no audiophile, more of a techie 'bang-for-the-buck', so make

of the above what you will. Which means, to me, the return on

my money for audio quality drops off pretty quickly. I can

hear the difference, sure, but can't convince myself that

its worth $1000 or more.

I'm still browsing these Klipsch forum's more out of reflex than

anything else. Klipsch just didn't do it for us in the end, although

I will be getting the Promedia5.1 when the budget allows for

my PC gaming. Half-Life2 is around the corner. : )

I could even see promoting the Promedia 5.1 to replace the B&W/NHT

mix. Have to see which way shakes out as more often used,

Home Theater vs Music.

[HT Rookie]

Thx all

anyone else, please feel free to comment

Also, as mentioned above, I am buy a whole new setup and having it all professionally installed. I see my budget being between $8-9K

2500- TV

900- receiver

399- surge protecter/line conditioner

200- equipment rack

1850- install labor and materials (includes monster cables)

Totals $5850

Leaves me about $2200-3200 for 2 fronts, 2 rears, 2 centers, and 1 sub

So I may be able to get something better than the reference series, anyone got any ideas.

[chinoloco]

I thought the RF-15s were too in your face when I first started to listen to them. When we moved them about 18 inches further apart, changed the angle of the toe-in a little away from each other.. it was like bingo..

I still prefer the RF-35s or Rf-7.. a little more deeper sound, but under my current budget, RF-15s work great. We have tweaked with the locations a little more and now we got it right. I think for my family room size, we have the right speakers.

[HT Rookie]

Chinoloco

Thx for the reply. I am curious, how do you like the dipole speakers (RS-25), the guy at the store was trying to sell me on them, but I would prefer to use the RB-25's

[chinoloco]

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On 9/4/2003 4:25:44 PM HT Rookie wrote:

Chinoloco

Thx for the reply. I am curious, how do you like the dipole speakers (RS-25), the guy at the store was trying to sell me on them, but I would prefer to use the RB-25's

----------------

To be honest with you, I have not listened to the RB-25s as surrounds so i have little to judge on.

Having said that, I like the RS-25. It seems to give great effects on movies whether its DTS or DD. I do think that the RB-25's front port might give you some more bass and the tweeter and the horn facing the front will give some direction, but I do appreciate the angled tweeters of the RS-25. Not to mention that the RS-25 has 2 tweeters at 90 degrees instead of 1 tweeter, I feel that design is better for placement of effects for movies. I know people here will swear by their floors or book shelfs, but like mOOn, for movies, when the sound is supposed to be for over there.. I want to hear it like its from over there. It hasn't been a problem for music at this time as my 5.1 DVDs are usually live performances and the RS gives the crowd some life with the wider dispertion. It does make you feel more like you are in the room of a live concert. On a SACD that is studio recorded and not live with Multi-channel, well... I can comment tonight after I finish cabling the player with the 6 cables so I can listen to multi channel SACD.

If you truly like 2 channel music even for SACDs and want the surrounds for movies, consider the RS. If you are 5.1 channel music and don't care as much for movies.. then go with the RB. I know 5.1 music is a hot button topic, so it kinda up to you. If you are fifty-fifty, then I would go with the RS because I think movies will be affected more then music. The surrounds of music should be giving "ambience" so the wide dispertion may not be such a bad thing.

I am not dissappointed with the RS25 at all. I think sometimes, its easy to forget that the RS is designed specifically for surround and we take these dipole speakers for granted.

[HT Rookie]

Chinoloco- Again thx for the feedback. I read an article that you might be interested in about the surround speakers. here is the link

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/local.faq/ObjectID/F5CA2EB5-3D20-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37

[colterphoto1]

Good questions and thanks for considering Klipsch. First of all, Best Buys is not a full service store and carries only the Synergy line. Go to your local full-service audio dealer to AUDITION the speakers you are considering. The RMS means little, since the Klipsch are SOOOO effiecient that you will rarely be using all the wattage your receiver puts out. I'd seriously consider the RS line for your surrounds, depending on your room configuration. Especially in a smaller room, the localization of the sound is critical. For most HT applications, you want fairly direct sound from the fronts (so youse can tell where the noise is coming from), then somewhat more indirect sound for the rears (so the sound bounces around like in a real theatre). I'd get the baddest center channel you can afford if you plan on lots of movie watching. If your main interest is stereo listening, get the biggest front L/R's you can afford. Most folks on this board consider a sub a requirement, but depending on budget and room size (and dare I say, decor) you may not be able to fit it in or afford it right away. Thats okay, because the Reference series all have pretty serious, smooth bass.

Hope all this helps- remember that room placement and acoustical treatments like drapes and carpet play a HUGE role in the final sound of your room. Consider all these item carefully and have FUN!

[wangdang]

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On 9/1/2003 4:54:21 PM HT Rookie wrote:

\I see my budget being between $8-9K

\2500- TV

\900- receiver

\399- surge protecter/line conditioner

\200- equipment rack

\1850- install labor and materials (includes monster cables)

\Totals $5850

I have the Yammie 2300, a full set of RB Reference speakers and a room about the size of yours. A couple of thoughts about your budget -- I don't see the reason for the high priced install and cables, especially given your relatively cheap rack and frankly, small set-up. Nor the need for a high priced line conditioner. My suggestion is to cut bucks there and spend more on speakers -- or the addition of DVD-A, SACD, LP, disks.

DB

[chinoloco]

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On 9/4/2003 10:37:56 PM HT Rookie wrote:

Chinoloco- Again thx for the feedback. I read an article that you might be interested in about the surround speakers. here is the link

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/local.faq/ObjectID/F5CA2EB5-3D20-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37

----------------

Interesting article.

"When listening to many movies using dipole surround speakers compared to conventional monopole speakers, one might hear a smoother transition of sounds panning from front to rear "

This is why i bought dipole speakers.

Good thing is in the room where I have my current setup, its logistically only going to allow me to have 5.1 because the back wall is 40 feet from the front wall. I don't want to hang from the ceiling if possible. However if I did, the dipoles will work great because the speakers are much higher then the listener's ear position which acording to the article much better for dipole. Like I said, its important to listen and think about your purpose for the rears... music or movies.

[PhilMays]

HT Rookie,

Is there a reason you are not hooking up your system yourself. For that much money seems like you could give it a shot. If it worked just think of the upgrade potential.

[chinoloco]

Maybe its in-wall installation speaker wire installation?

I know the interconnects and speaker wires will cost you at least 200-300.

The TV delivery should not be more then 100.00.

that still leaves alot of money left over.

Inwall installation does cost alot.

[HT Rookie]

Hi all

First I must say that the installation is not not only for this setup, they will also be installing my exisitng system in the Family room.

Second, all of this is taking place in a new home that is currently being built, therefore all of the wiring will be done in the walls before the drywall goes in.

so they will be doing my family room for a 5.1 setup and the living room for a 6.1 setup, that means a lot of speaker wire, there will be all new monster cables for video and audio, wall plates, banana plugs, etc. They will also be setting up a LCD touchscreen remote for the living room

Because this a new house, I wanted to take advantage of that and have everything prewired. I have 2 small children and a new one due just about the time my house and new HT is due to be completed, so I would not have the time to do it myself. and the basement will be finished so, it would be difficult to do the prewiring after the house is done.

And finally, though I do consider myself a technical person and somewhat intelligent, I must admit that I do not feel confident that I would be able to tweak my system to the best of it's ability

Trust me, it hurts me to pay that to someone to do

[Beesley]

"so they will be doing my family room for a 5.1 setup and the living room for a 6.1 setup"

Is 7.1 an option for the living room in case you want to upgrade and add another channel in the future?

[HT Rookie]

The living room is only 11 feet wide by 15 feet long, I think 7.1 would be overkill for a room this size.

I am now kind of thinking of doing some of the install myself. The portion of basement under my LR will not be finished, so I could drill some holes through the floor and run the cables underneath and staple to the underside of my LR floor.

[wireless]

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On 9/4/2003 4:25:44 PM HT Rookie wrote:

Chinoloco

Thx for the reply. I am curious, how do you like the dipole speakers (RS-25), the guy at the store was trying to sell me on them, but I would prefer to use the RB-25's

----------------

I have the rs-25s which I like. I previously had a pair of Forte's as surrounds and while they sounded great with 5-channel stereo, they projected the surround sound in movies a little too much. By that I mean you could hear sounds coming from a specific location (the speakers), when it should have been more diffuse (for the surround effect).

The surrounds work very well in my opinion and I'm glad I went that route. I think the sound is much more as the producer(s) meant for it to be heard. It's cool now to hear the surround audio such as a baby crying in the backgound or the sound of being outside (crickets!) sounding so realistic.

Surrounds clearly don't measure up to full-size speakers when playing 5-channel stereo. The RS's sound a little harsh actually and I don't know if that's the design or if they aren't broken in yet. I need to put on CD, crank it up and leave the house and maybe that'll smooth them, if not the neighbors.

So I think it depends on what you want to use them for. If you're watching a lot of DVDs I would recommend the RS's. Plus they take up less space and can be set on the end tables if you want to.

-David