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THE BEST EQUALIZER?


dodger

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Nicholtl, the way around the digital thing would be to place an equalizer between the preouts on a A/V receiver and an external amplifier but I would only recommend this if it was truly needed.

Minn you are absolutely correct their are NO high end consumer equalizers being produced these days that I am aware of. The last one may have been the Audio Control C-131 (mono 30 band (2) required) and the R-131 companion 30 band RTA display unit. The 14/10 sold for $1300 new, and the Audio Control units if purchased all together were probably close to $1500 - $1750.

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"Minn you are absolutely correct their are NO high end consumer equalizers being produced these days that I am aware of. "

The C-131 is discontinued but Audio Control makes other units... some that are very powerful like 'The Diva.'

There are other units available though too. Rane makes couple of 'home' models.

For subwoofer duty only the Behringer DSP 1124 FeedBack Destroyer Pro is a very popular unit and offers 12 bands of parametric EQ per channel and is very inexpensive. Not the best choice for your mains though. For bass duties Marchand makes their dual purpose 'Bassis' unit.

In reality any good studio quality (not sound reinforcement quality) Pro EQ can be used in a home environment too. You just might need TRS to RCA adapters or something like that.

Some surround processors and receivers are getting EQ functions too. B&Ks have offered a notch filter for quite awhile, Meridian recently added room EQ, Pioneer has their system and so on.

Speaker manufacturers are adding a few bands of parametric EQ to speakers/subwoofers too to deal with the reality that the room they are going to be used in is going to be an EQ of sorts. Infinity has their RABOS system on some of their models and Revel has something very similiar. Theil has their 'Smart' crossover controller for their sub which has some EQ functions. ACI has their AWS (adaptive woofer system) on a few of their semi-active speakers.

And of course there is the EQ on steroids offered by companies like TacT, SigTech and ClarityEQ (now DeqX) which goes far beyond what any traditional EQ can do.

There are many other examples then these too.

Shawn

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thanks for the references....

but it does come down to this..... most high end systems do not use equalizers and processors....

and everytime you introduce another component in the audio signal path, there is the chance for distortion, noise and signal degradation.... if not from the components themselves, then from the interconnects and every added connection.... even if all your components have low distortion figures, you need to add them all up for the total distortion in your system.....

some purists even prefer to use a source (cd for example) with a volume control so they can run it directly into their amplifier, bypassing a preamplifier.... lowering the distortion and avoiding any coloration that a preamp may add to the signal...

and the benefits of adding a high end signal processor are very debatable...esp considering the cost....

in most cases experimenting with speaker placement and/or room treatments can solve many problems that processors are used for....

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"..... most high end systems do not use equalizers and processors...."

In your opinion.

In my experience it is the opposite.... EQs and processors are used to very good effect for music listening by many with very high end systems.

"some purists even prefer to use a source (cd for example) with a volume control so they can run it directly into their amplifier, bypassing a preamplifier.... lowering the distortion and avoiding any coloration that a preamp may add to the signal..."

Yeah, I went through the purist passive pre-amp phase years ago.

Shawn

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ok shawn,

you are right... my opinion.....

and every manufacturer that just happened to display their products at the CEDIA show about a year ago in minneapolis.... i don't think that there was a single equalizer present in the entire minneapolis convention center....

thanks for your references earlier in the thread.... i noticed that they were all referring to home theatre applications...

so... now that you are out of your "passive preamp stage"..... what are you using for equipment?... i notice that you haven't listed your equipment....

oh, and by the way...you mentioned the rane "home" models.... very noisy equalizers.... i sell the professional line of rane equipment and the home theatre equalizers are part of that line.... if that is your example of a "good" equalizer then you don't know what you are talking about....

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To answer a question which I think got overlooked here....

There are eq's available that do their work digitally (Behringer Ultracurve comes to mind). They would have the potential for a digital input and output, thereby eliminating two conversions.

As to the debate going on regarding added noise to the system, Win made it clear that room treatments were more or less not possible. Speaker placement may be an unexplored option. Being familiar with Win's posts, I somehow doubt that.

For most corrective purposes, I prefer a good quality, fully parametric EQ when necessary. In general, 1/3 octave graphs introduce way too much phase shift and ringing. Check any newbie monitor engineer (or FOH, for that matter). (S)He will be hacking up the graphs trying to eliminate feedback, and the poor sap only makes it worse for the above mentioned reasons. Give me a good parametric any day. Many upper level monitor boards will have 5 band parametrics on every stick. Guys that use use these won't even carry graphs. They are inferior in every way. I will qualify that statement by saying that graphs ARE easier to use than parametrics to the un(der)trained user.

Win, good luck on your trip. If you'd like my opinion on tuning the room when you get your new Corns settled, let me know. I AM very busy, but I'm sure we can arrange something. I lack the experience and measurement equipment of guys like Art, but I know my ears and have half a clue. It'd be cool to compare the two Scotts, too.

Let me know.

Ben

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"There are eq's available that do their work digitally (Behringer Ultracurve comes to mind). They would have the potential for a digital input and output, thereby eliminating two conversions."

bclarke,

just a comment on the behringer units.... if you decide to go with the behringer, be sure to buy it from a company with a good return policy.... behringer has alot of bang for the buck..... but...over the past 9 months or so there have been some serious quality control problems with many of the behringer units..... i personally had to return 3 DSP-8024's because they were dead out of the box.....

my customer ended up going with a different manufacturer because of behringer's poor quality control....

you will find the same type of comments on the pro sound forums about behringer

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"i noticed that they were all referring to home theatre applications..."

No they aren't. Plenty of them are meant for two channel systems but can also be used in HT applications too of course.

"..... what are you using for equipment?."

My system is a little bit in flux as I'm building a dedicated room for it (stagger studs, double walled, floating ceiling joists to 'sound proof' it) and it will be sorta splitting into two systems.

My traditional system for both music and movies is:

Lexicon MC-12B

L/R - Dzurko Acoustics/ACI Jaguars

Center - ACI Veritas

Sides/Rears ACI Sapphire IIIs

L/R subs ACI Titans (BFD for subs, replaced Audio Control C131s)

LFE sub Quantum Sound/Servodrive ContraBass

L/C/R/LFE amps Crown K2

surrounds H/K PA5800

Sources:

Sony, JVC and Pioneer CD/DVD/DVD-A players

Marantz 10B tuner

Pioneer LD-704 w/Lexicon LDD1

ReplayTV 5040

couple of Sony MD players, Mitsubishi S-VHS VCR, McCormack Micro Integraded Drive for Grade SR-60 and Entoymotic ER4S, Koss ESP-950

Sota Comet/Grado Platinum/McCormack Micro Phono Drive

When the room is done some of the speakers will be staying where they are (wife won't let me take some of them down stairs as she decorated some of the room around them) but I will probably be running them with a Meridian 565 processor.

The Lex. is going downstairs to the new room with most of the sources. LCRs speakers will be La Scala's w/ALKs and either 511B or 811B horns. (I'm experimenting with them now and want to measure their low end response with an AC SA-3051 and ETF). Amps for them are Monoarchy Audio SM-70/SM-70 Pro. Not sure on sides and rears yet. Possibly Heresys but maybe some custom surrounds that I'm thinking about. The subs will be moving down there too.

Shawn

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thanks shawn...

some very nice equipment!

but the only eq's you're using if i read it right are the behringer units for your subs....

"In my experience it is the opposite.... EQs and processors are used to very good effect for music listening by many with very high end systems."

if that is what you really think then why aren't you using them???

because i will definitely agree that you have a very high end system......

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On 9/4/2003 5:11:07 PM minn_male42 wrote:

"I must have missed Minn's poll of the forum folks to see which ones are using some sort of Eq'ing or not since not everyone posts their equipment lists."

i stand corrected.... let me re-state.... other than your equipment list frz, i do not recall seeing ANY forum member list an EQUALIZER and/or SOUND PROCESSOR in their equipment list....

come to think of it.... in the many forums that i have visited, i don't remember seeing any equalizer listed by any of the members on those forums either.....

You list a processor along with many others...no offense just calling a contradiction

as for my "generalized statements"..... they are based upon many years of auditioning professional equalizers and sound processors - many of them costing well over $1000.....

i admit that i have never auditioned any "high quality consumer equalizers".... come to think of it - i have never heard of any "high quality consumer equalizers"..... other than your discontinued dbx units, what "high quality consumer equalizers" are available?????

please include websites....

thanks

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"if that is what you really think then why aren't you using them???"

I never said EQs should be used for everything... I said they should be used properly.

I am using them where appropriate and they do improve the sound. The room has huge influence in the bass, which is what my subs reproduce thanks to the processing of the Lex. in the form of digital crossovers, and I use parametric EQ to help deal with that. The Lexicon's time alignment processing helps to make the blend between the subs and the mains much more seamless.

Lexicon's 'Bass Enhance' processing further enhances the perception of bass in my room by increasing externilization and increasing the aparent spaciousness in the bass. See: http://world.std.com/~griesngr/multichan.pdf for more details on that.

My center also has two bands of parametric on its powered woofers to help account for the Allison effect which will vary depending upon the center height.

The Lexicon offers tone/tilt controls (types of EQ/processing) which are handy for bad recordings. And it has a very sophisticated form of a 'Loudness' control (EQ/processing) which varies depending upon the actual SPL at the listening position. So unlike most 'Looudness' controls it is never boomy/muddy from too much boost... just nicely balanced bass at any volume. I tend to have that on almost all the time.

And I use the Lexicon's surround processing (Logic 7 Music) for almost all of my music listening. When the systems split the reason I'd be using the Meridian on the other system is for its TriField processing.

So I think it is very safe to say I use both EQ and very high quality processing to improve my music listening.

Shawn

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shawn and bkrop,

if you go back to the original question:

Greetings:

If one decides to use an equalizer in the system, is there any consensus as to the best model?

Thanks,

Win dodger

i interpreted that question as asking for what outboard equalizer - i.e. brand and model number - is the best!!!

and others also addressed that question through the course of the discussion.....

claiming that the "tone controls" or "bass enhancement feature" on your home theatre processor addresses that question misses the whole point of the discussion!!!!

and for the record.... my tone controls are set flat for home theatre use as well as two channel listening..... in fact, i use the "direct" function which bypasses the tone control circuits on my pioneer....

if you want to use your tone controls and other special tonal adjustments that are built-in on your home theatre processor - great!!!.... but that is pretty irrelevant to the original question....

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You want killer eq that is real musical.

Try some vintage Neve Eq out of old neve mixing boards iou never look back.

One small bummer is the price 2- 4k for a rack pair.

Neve is the the most sought after eq in the world.

Other good choice for tru high end eg are...

Quad Eight,API

Another place to look for great eq is check what the mastering Houses are using.J

ust about all recodings out there went through there eqs at some point.

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"i interpreted that question as asking for what outboard equalizer - i.e. brand and model number - is the best!!! and others also addressed that question through the course of the discussion....."

So did I, read the second post in this thread asking about what the intended use of the EQ was. It is hard to recommend an EQ without knowing what the person is trying to accomplish with it.

"claiming that the "tone controls" or "bass enhancement feature" on your home theatre processor addresses that question misses the whole "

Never said it did address the original question. The second post in this thread did address the question. We got sidetracked because of your claims of:

"it is still a fact that 99% or more of the members of this forum DO NOT USE AND EQUALIZER...."

and

" i do not recall seeing ANY forum member list an EQUALIZER and/or SOUND PROCESSOR in their equipment list.... come to think of it.... in the many forums that i have visited, i don't remember seeing any equalizer listed by any of the members on those forums either....."

and this too:

"but it does come down to this..... most high end systems do not use equalizers and processors...."

Which is then when we got into a discussion of the use of EQ and processing for music listening.

"and for the record.... my tone controls are set flat for home theatre use as well as two channel listening..... "

My tone controls are usually flat too. But just like EQ when needed (bad recordings) I'll use them. Far better to use them and then enjoy a recording instead of avoiding the music all together because of horrible sound.

"in fact, i use the "direct" function which bypasses the tone control circuits on my pioneer...."

No need for that on my Lexicon as the tone controls aren't done with analog circuits. They are done digitally so when they aren't used there is simply nothing there effecting the music.

Shawn

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Saw ads for 2 channel 31 band Goldline (www.gold-line.com) EQ's in hometheatermag. I think they retail for $1000 per. I would assume those are good for anyone looking into EQ's.

By the way, Frz and Sfogg, thanks for the EQ explanation. I think I'll pass...I don't want to put anything between my preamp and amps.

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