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DVD-Audio or SACD


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Not to start a huge argument but can anyone fill me in on whether DVD-Audio is going to be practical (are more titles ever going to be available?) or is SACD going to be the one that goes big? Which one actually sounds better?

Mains: Klipsch SF-2

Center: Klipsch SC-1

Surrounds: Klipsch SB-2

Subwoofer: Boston PV600

Reciever: Denon AVR-1700

CD Player: Denon DCM-370

DVD Player: Sony DVP-S360

MiniDisc: Sony MDS-JB940

VCR: Sony Hi-Fi SLV-790

Tv: Sony 20 inch

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Well I have an opinon as most people do, but I say SACD is better, well because Sony does their research right, although DVD-Audio wil proably win out because the PLayers already exist at a lower price and incorportate much easier into DVD Players. Until Sony gets backing from other companies (which I don't think they do) DVD-Audio will probably win in the long run. If I am wrong in anything I stated correct me..

JPK

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I've never heard either one yet, but I do think one of them will eventually become dominant over the other, and will begin to supplant the Compact Disc. And I HOPE the victor will be Sonys' SACD. For one thing, it was conceived as a MUSIC format, not a one-size-fits-all, like DVD. And if you compare the technologies, at least to my non-technical brain, the SACD format seems more elegant and simpler. Plus, if so encoded, SACD's ~can~ play in your CD player - a real boon.

I really doubt that there is a nickels worth of sonic difference between them, as the specs. for both are just so good.

Also, I have read of some bass management glitches with some DVD-A equipment, whereas Sony seems to have done their homework in that area.

I'm really salivating at the prospect of multi-channel audio done right (by "right", I mean no music sources placed in the surrounds). Also, as of yet I see practically no AUDIO gear, other than power amps, for multi-channel; it's all A/V stuff. I'm probably a minority on this, but I don't want equipment in my music room to have "A/V", or "video" plastered all over it. No video inputs/outputs, no cinema soundfields, not one blessed thing pertaining to video. May have a while to wait, since there seems to be a parting of almost biblical proportions between the two-channel audio world and the multi-channel home theater crowd.

Oh, Sony does have a 5-disc multi-channel SACD player out now for about $1700.00 msrp. So they are getting more affordable.

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JDMcCall

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I am sure SACD sounds better, but I want DVD-A to win, and I expect DVD-A to win...

why? Well, the name, for one thing. Also, SACD, you need to do a bunch of wierd analog connection stuff to get the good sound... with DVD-A, you just plug your dvd player into your reciever, and boom....

or, there are dvd players that are also recievers that do DVD-A as well...

Heheh. That'd be nice...

Plus, DVD-A is a more universal format...

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"Feh."

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Gluegun,

I think you are not making a distinction between DVD and DVD-Audio. As far as I know (not very far), you can only access a discrete DVD-Audio signal through the players multi-channel analog outputs. "Standard" DVD players lack these outputs and are incapable of playing DVD-Audio anyway.

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JDMcCall

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Hmmmm.....

Doesn't all of this remind us of say about 25 years ago when the Betamax vs. VHS wars were going on? If memory serves Sony was behind Betamax (the technically superior)and they lost out to VHS (the technically inferior. Tooearly to invest in either hardware or software...best to sit on the sidelines alittle longer if you don't want to end up with tommorrow's 8 track!

Dave

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i know one of you fine people will keep us all informed as soon as the first dvd audio player comes out with bass managment right?? with sacd players is bass mngmt automatic with it?? or do you have the same problems with that too? also will a new preamp/rcvr be necessary too? because maybe the dynamic range of my yamaha rcvr wont cut it?? there are so many ??? out there that it seems it will take alot of time for these new formats to come around as the american public doesnt like quick change and are just getting used to regular cds..lol

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my equipment:

klipsch rf-3 (main)

klipsch center ch speaker

boston acoustics (rear)

mirage ss-1500 subwoofer

yamaha 795 receiver driving center and rears parasound hca-1500 amp

driving rf-3s

mirage subwoofer 1500 watts!

sony 650 dvd/cd player

sony minidisc/cd player combo

panasonic hifi vcr

waiting to see what new reference line will sound like in 2001!!

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Sony announced at the recent Home Entertainment show in NYC tht they will have a player capable of playing DVD movies and SACDs for $299 with bass management by the end of the summer. There are a lot more SACD titles out ... both sounded a significent degree better than CDs ... what really impressed me was the Perpetual Technology devices that can turn regular CDs into a very close approximation of super cds. however these devices are expensive, although they also corrrect for speaker and room anomalies!

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Roy,

I can't speak for anyone else, but Sony has the bass management aced on their SACD players. Now if they'd just give us an SACD digital output and an SACD recorder. Cool.gif

And yes, you will need a new receiver (or pre/pro or integrated amp) if you want to have somewhere to go with those nifty multichannel analog outputs on the back of your SACD (or DVD-AConfused.gif).

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JDMcCall

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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but don't the current SACD players just have bass management for stereo SACD playback. It is all a real mess. The problem with SACD is that Sony is pioneering both the hardware and the software. The issue here becomes the age old copyright paranoia and therefore the lack of digital connection. Typically the hardware manufacture would want to provide the best equipment, which in today's technology should include digital connections. But the record labels are so paranoid that there will be copyright infringment they pressure the hardware manufacters into not providing digital outputs. If SACD wins this battle, we are less likely to see the digital connection capabilities any time in the near future. This will mean that the players will have to have pre-amp like options (channel adjustment, bass management and whatever else the player will have to do). So if you buy a Lexicon pre-amp/processor with 192/24, you will have to let your Sony player do all of the tweaking. Kind of defeats the purpose?

I just wish everybody would decide on one format so we could all just get along! I believe Toshiba has a DVD-A player with progressive scan coming out this summer at $400, this could get interesting.

Happy listening!

JT

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decibel man has pretty much made my points except for one. Sony's 9000ES DVD/SACD player is supposed to have a digital out for DD/DTS and a pair of analog outs for SACD. I haven't been able to see one, but there is no mention of a sub out for bass management. Nevertheless, My ACT-3 will take an analog 2-channel signal and do all of the bass management, prologic and other surround effects it's supposed to do. Surely these other receivers and pre/pros will, too. How do you feed your subwoofers with a tuner or VHS input?

5.1 DVD-Audio is another kettle of fish!

John

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Outlaw Audio has both a DVDA player with bass management, and a separate 5.1 (or 6.1, dunno) bass management unit in the pipe.

In terms of the whole SACD/DVDA argument. Personally I would probably prefer to use SACD, but I don't see it really working out in the long-term, for the whole Betamax/VHS reason, and that DVDA isn't really complicated for current DVDV mfg's to implement.

I dislike SACD because the analog stage is hideously complex (dual differential) so it will be a PITA for me to build a vacuum tube stage for it. The fact that a new digital transmission scheme, and all new DACs are needed is no big deal to me. If SACD takes off I expect that we would see these.

I REALLY dislike DVD-A because 1) The DVDCCA has thier claws in it, 2) There is no clear indication of exactly WHAT audio is on it, or whether it was initially mastered at a lower rate, or whatnot. 3) It is too 'general purpose' which isn't *neccesarily* bad, but I feel will turn out to be so in this case.

There will be 2ch, 96khz, 24bit DVDA's and 5ch 96khz 24bit DVDA's and 2ch 192khz, 24bit DVDA's and various combinations that will turn out to have been mastered at a lower rate and converted. And (from what I've seen) there will be NO clear indication of which is which on the packaging itself.

What I've seen of DVDA is just a mess, and I don't expect it to get much better.

Now is a good time to pick up a nice old TT and buy a good phono stage :)

Charlie

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"What's that noise?" "It's the carpet, it kinda mutes the speakers." "No, it sounded more like the chandalier falling."

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James, I understood Sound&Vision Maagazine say that DVD-A would have the multi channel mix as well as a 5.1 mix and a pcm mix. Am I mistaken or have there been a change in plans? At any rate, when I ask for DVD-A in record stores I"m met with bewildered blank expressions. None of these salespeople have a clue as to what I am talking about.

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My biggest gripe with DVD-A (from messing around with a player at my dealers) is you CAN'T USE THE DAMN THING UNLESS IT'S HOOKED UP TO A TEEVEE!!! There's no way to control it without being able to see it.

uh, let me restate that correctly... YOU CAN'T USE THE DAMN THING UNLESS IT'S HOOKED UP TO A TEEVEE!!!s>

There. I feel better. Thanks for listening. I'll go play some Perry Como now. Where's that cactus needle again?

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

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Basically, it seems to me that the powers that be are making one heck of a mess of selling hi-rez multi-channel audio.

First, you have two incompatible formats, then you have SACD players that are two-channel only, followed by multi-channel SACD. Then you've got bass management issues (although Sony states all of its' multi-channel SACD machines DO have bass management within the player itself, hence not to worry about the lack of multi-channel digital outs). And then there is that pesky subject of digital outputs (or the lack therof).

Add to all this hardware confusion the record company paranoia (watermarks, copy inhibition, etc.). Not to mention high disc prices, practically zero availabilty to the mainstream, no concensus on even how to record multi-channel, or what the "right" speaker set-up is for proper playback (identical satellites all around? full-range all around? monopole or dipole or bipole rears?)

All in all, it's another fine mess they've gotten us into. And I really am excited about the possibilities...if they'd just get their heads together for once!!!

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JDMcCall

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I like Charlie's (aka Spider124) ultimate solution the best.

Get a turntable, a decent cartridge and phono stage, and spin some LPs. Ahhhhh . . . two channel analog.

And vinyl is educational too. Yesterday, I learned that spiders can get dizzy. I noticed a spider on the record, and turned the turntable off to avoid the little critter getting mashed by the approaching needle. The thing started to walk, wobbled, and walked in circles!

I would not have experienced that with DVDA or SACD, regardless of whether they had digital outs or bass management. :D

I must admit though, the little I've heard of SACD sounded awfully nice.

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I heard the new Sony SACD player when it first came out - on the dealer¡¦s long standing demo equipment, in the sumptuous quiet luxury of their highest end salon. The massive unit is still sitting there today, topping a rack of silver Krell boxes, next to a Krell concrete block amp and a pair of curvaceous cherry B&W 802s.

I played the Sony demo CD and a favorite of mine ¡V the Paul Simon Rhythm of the Saints with its lush tropical sound and its 12 piece band. They both sounded good. Unlike some of the audio pundits, my first impression was not that ¡§here was suddenly the sound of vinyl in a more practical, marketable format¡¨. My first impression was that for a $5,000 piece of brushed metal equipment, it had better sound good. The Paul Simon classic sounded wonderful on the high-end, big buck system, of course ¡V but no new secrets were startling reveled to me. A few observations, and then a conclusion:

1. The price of SACD players has just dropped. Now models sell at the $1500 price point. Suddenly the race for the high end turntable dollar is on. For the price of a really good cartridge and a really good turntable, audiophiles can now play Super Audio CDs and regular ones.

2. Plus there is more wind left in the CD sails that should carry the format for quite sometime. I am thinking about the 24-bit/96 kHz recording I am currently in thrall with ¡K Diana Krall¡¦s re-mastered issue of her first album, Stepping Out (Justin Time, 2000).

While I love the DMP and Chesky recordings because they are such great recordings, they still do sound like just that, great recordings. This CD, whether it is the youthful rawness of a young artist, or the artistic superiority of newly used technology, I don¡¦t know, but this disc, does not sound like a recording at all. The sound is close to flawless.

The left hand side of her piano growls like the meanest junkyard dog. The bass is there ¡V it is just plain there. Solid, tangible, plucked and ready to slide. The highest notes float in the night air like the wings of Tinker-bell. Krall¡¦s voice has the strength, timber and depth of the recording studio.

While she does have reverberation mixed in, like most female singers do, her instruments strangely do not, just like other groups. This is a recording trick that never fails to create some cognitive dissonance for me, yet the recording comes closer to the real thing than any I have listened to yet.

Cleaner, more solid, better texture and more fully formed sound adds up to an greatly improved sense of realism. The holographic illusion of a live singer has taken not just one, but two steps closer.

3. ¡§Close your eyes and fake you out¡¨ realism is still a long way off, but this CD was startling to me. 24-bit/96 kHz recording technology has a lot to offer the currently huge CD market. I have purchased, and do like, the HDCD formats. It is nice and it is good. The sound is slightly more palpable, solid and together than the regular CD. A small improvement compared to the delicious notes of the Krall piece. One step closer.

4. DVD-A has a lot going for it: a booming video market, wider frequency and dynamic range. Oh yes, plus that wonderful marketing advantage ¡V six channels, one for the mighty bass, of sound. For many typical home entertainment systems, the addition of the sub-woofer (with its ability to fill in the bottom end of both music and movies), will do more for the average American consumer¡¦s enjoyment of audio and video than the nifty effect of 5-way surround sound.

My guess is that a fracturing of the audio/video market is taking place. A comminuted fracture of three parts:

h The low end two channel sound, enhanced by HDCD and 24-bit/96 kHz recordings, will continue for teenagers, low-end and second systems, and car audio.

h The DVD, with either movie or music, will commandeer the living room, the big screen TV and the family¡¦s six channel sound system. Speakers, starting with the sub-woofer, will meld with amplifiers (which they should have done a long time ago) and then with the pre-amp/control systems.

h Dad, if he wants to listen to high-end music, will have to stick with mechanical black vinyl discs or graduate to a SACD player.

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I hate to break it to everyone but we are all assuming one or other will win. Seems to me that the folks out there want their music easy and dont care a damn for quality - witness the explosion of MP3.

People bought into DVD initially because they wanted the cinema experience at home. Quality of sound didnt really come into it, quality of picture - yes and surround sound yes - but quality? Suddenly we think that they will jump over barrels and pay out more money for music quality.

I am begining to doubt it. SACD and DVDa could be doomed to an audiophile only existance with less titles available than XRCD's have (supposedly about the best quality CD on the market - and it doesnt need specialist hardware to run it).

I hope I am wrong and one or other takes off, but right now - I just dont see it.

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