Wild Blue Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I'm hearing very good things about people who have chosen to use new Parasound Halo processors and equipment with Klipsch speakers. The Halo line is really fantastic. http://www.parasound.com I'm also a happy Klipsch set owner (Legend Series, KLF-30, C-7, S-6 based) and have made the plunge to buy the Halo C-1 Processor, A51 5-channel amp, and A21 2-channel amp. Since my theater isn't complete yet, I haven't made all the connections, however. I have heard of a few Klipsch/Halo owners that are getting a low volume hiss out of their speakers, though. Rudy even posted that Parasound said that for Klipsch speakers, the balanced connectors should NOT be used, as they add a 6dB gain, contributing to the hiss. One of the reasons I bought the Halo line, though, was for the higher-end balanced connections that are supposed to REDUCE background noise. What have others heard? For those who are interested, we're also discussing this issue and other Parasound topics at the Club Parasound/Halo site, if you'd like to come join us: http://www.htguide.com/CFBoards/index.cfm?fuseaction=Threads.listings&forum=40&CFB=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Wild Blue: I don't want to put out bad information. I don't beleive I said that your "should not" use the balanced connections. The deal is that the balanced end of the C2 interface has a 6dB gain and coupled with our efficient Klipsch, this will allow you to hear a hiss. The hiss is not some horrible, loud sound. It is just there, and that bothered me. I have heard it many times before in other systems. Howver, I thought in this higher end gear, it should not be there. After speaking with Parasound, they explained that the C2 is set to THX Ultra 2 standards and the balanced section ADDS 6dB to that standard. They assured me that there is NO difference in the signal put out by either balanced or unbalanced. The balanced connection is just better, by design, at keeping out noise picked up by the cables. Using unbalanced cables, my system is totally silent with no source playing. I have yet to make unbalanced cables. I just ordered the Canare cabling and will report when I get them set up. Don't stress out about the hiss. You may find that your system will not exhibit those characteristics. I have only found one other Klipsch owner that has that problem, and he has Khorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Blue Posted October 15, 2003 Author Share Posted October 15, 2003 Thanks for the more info, Rudy! I know exactly what you're talking about with the hiss being slightly bothersome but not annoying. I heard it in my last system with the same Klipsch system driven by my Yamaha RX-V2095. The Yamaha is a nice unit, and was very popular. But when I'd turn up the volume to theater reference levels to listen to a movie nice and loud, I could hear a very slight hiss before any sound started or in silent parts of the movie. For example, when I view THX and DTS trailers (which I love like any of us theater junkies) I love to turn it up LOUD. Just before the explosion of sound to begin the trailer, in the silent part, there's that slight hiss there that detracts from the experience. Like you, that's one of the many reasons I upgraded to high-end equipment and chose to go with the Parasound Halo line. I love the Klipsch speakers, and I DO APPRECIATE that they are so efficient and revealing--I WANT to hear every detail of the soundtrack. But I DON'T want to hear the hiss, which is coming from the overall system, not the media source itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Since you're also on club parasound (what is your alias there, wildblue?) and here, Rudy has also successfully hijacked (jk!) the official parasound halo thread on AVS forum. Klipsch's are efficient, but I also run XLR connections and experience miniscule hiss only when very very close to the speaker. As in when my ear is pressed up to the speaker grille. It might be because I use RF-7's and Rudy uses Belles. I'm not sure...either way, I would not worry that using one cable over another - balanced vs. unbalanced - will produce huge or detrimental results. If you must, try them both out. However, I'm here to tell you that I use balanced connections from the C2 to A51 and A21 with Klipsch reference speakers and there is absolute not a complaint on my part. From any listening distance other than UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL, hiss is non-audible. BTW - congrats on the purchase of HALO gear. They are fine products indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I was hoping nobody would notice I hijacked the AVS thread. I was just trying to see if anyone else was experiencing that "problem". I complained only because I can hear the hiss at my seating distance of 14'. I thought that there may be something wrong with my C2. It is not the amp since the amp and just the speakers is totally quiet. However when connecting the amp to the C2 with balanced cables, the hiss returns. I spoke at lenght with Parasound and they are aware that highly efficient speakers will magnify the hiss you hear when you press your ear against the grilles. The unbalanced cables do not have the hiss as it turns out. Parasound techs explained to me why I can hear it with one set of cables and not another. The 6dB gain seems to be the culprit. I plan on going to unbalanced cables as soon as I build them. It's not a big annoyance, but I prefer to not hear the hiss when listening to quiet passages in music. These Belles have always exhibited this tendancy with my other integrated amps and AV receivers. I would certainly try it both ways and see which is satisfactory. I absolutely love my HALO gear and have no problems with it at all. I have also been very happy with Parasound's outstanding tech support. They offered to come to my house if I lived in San Fransisco and have a listen. Since I don't live there, they offered to have the C2 checked out if I wished. As I said earlier, I have heard from others with Khorns who have the same experience with the hiss and the balanced connections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 But wait, there's more! I have been researching the balanced vs. unbalanced issue and have come across some interesting information. It seems all balanced connections are not created equal. Apparently, some balanced connections are not "truly" balanced in the sense that they are merely taken from the unbalanced section and using a phase splitter, they create a balanced signal. Phase splitting requires more electronics in the signal path, and thus might make the balanced connection not as accurate as the original unbalanced source! If engineered in this manner, the signal then goes to a balanced input pre-amplifier (perhaps this is where the 6dB gain comes in). Apparently, in many instances the signal has through a unbalanced/balanced/unbalanced/balanced/unbalanced cycle by the time it reaches your speakers. All that, needless to say, adds more electronic stages, more noise and a less precise signal. I have sent a question to Parasound as to the engineering of the C2 processor in this area. We will see what they say. This book, "The complete guide to high end audio", suggests that for this reason, sometimes the balanced connection is not necessarily the best one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Just got a reply from Parasound support. The C1 and C2 balanced section is the unbalanced signal converted to balanced using phase splitters. They also verified that the 6dB gain is due to the process of converting the signal to balanced. Parasound indicates that they are not hearing much about this hiss from the general public, just owners of very efficient speakers. So, there you have it. In out case it may be better to use the unbalanced section, unless you are making very long cable runs and need the noise protection offered by the balanced cable. I plan on going to unbalanced soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Here is some information on what I was referring to in my last post: http://www.monstercable.com/RobertHarley/ch11_p07.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 and I just ordered the A52 and A23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I think you will be VERY pleased with your selection. Eventhough I have the hiss using the balanced section on my system, I am still very pleased with the overall performance. Unfortunately, out efficient speakers coupled with the balanced section gain allows us to hear the hiss. Not a big deal in my book. All my equipment is close together, so the balanced connections are not a must have. I just with I hadn't spent $350 on balanced cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Rudy, maybe just for sh!ts and giggles, you should buy a set of RF-7's and plug them in to your amps along with balanced cables and see how you like the sound. Granted, you own Belles and they are unworldly speakers, but all I'm suggesting is you try some equally fine speakers with less sensitivity. They results might might make you keep the balanced cables and think about changing speakers? (blasphemy!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Oh, let me think about it...Nah, no way am I letting go of my Belles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Rudy, SO I guess I was kinda right with my post on the AVS forum regarding going back to an unbalanced coaxial connection. I sorta thought the C2 was not a 100% pure balanced input pre/pro. I wonder how the other "big names" such as Lexicon handle their balanced inputs? Regards, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Mike: From what I have been able to determine, I don't beleive the balanced section is a "true" balanced section. I have come to understand that the costs of having a separate balanced section are very high and that type of engineering is not generally used for that reason. I will be going back to unbalanced cables due to the hiss. It is not horrible, but is is audible 14' feet away and I know that it is totally quiet with unbalanced. I guess with less efficient speakers, you cannot hear the effects of the 6dB gain. We, unfortunately, can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 ---------------- On 10/18/2003 12:23:17 PM Rudy81 wrote: Mike: From what I have been able to determine, I don't beleive the balanced section is a "true" balanced section. I have come to understand that the costs of having a separate balanced section are very high and that type of engineering is not generally used for that reason. I will be going back to unbalanced cables due to the hiss. It is not horrible, but is is audible 14' feet away and I know that it is totally quiet with unbalanced. I guess with less efficient speakers, you cannot hear the effects of the 6dB gain. We, unfortunately, can. ---------------- Isn't that why you are paying the big bucks? What about pro audio gear? I am sure those are 'real' balanced connectors (100, 200, 300 ft. mic cables) and some mixers have 16 of them for $1000. How much does the C2 cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 The long cable runs is why pro audio gear has that type of connection. I am a little disappointed that the HALO gear does not seem to have the separate balanced section. Now, I am relatively new to this, so I have no idea what the other "high end" manufacturers are doing with their systems. The C2 retails for $4000.00. Just for grins I looked at the top Krell AV system manual and it too mentions the 6dB gain for the balanced section. I don't have the engineers answer, but I am guessing that it too is not the "true" balanced section. From what I have read, the cost of making a true balanced section for a piece of AV gear like we are discussing is extremely high. It sounds as though you would have two processors, one to handle the unbalanced section and one balanced. I would guess that would make most gear even more costly. I know Parasound spent several years developing the HALO line and they left very little out in order to compete with the high end market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 I'm not too familiar with the Lexicon MC-12, but I know the unit is offered in an unbalanced ($6000) and balanced ($8000) version. I would assume these respective units to ONLY have either RCA or XLR connections. So perhaps Lexicon is an example of a maker of prepros that has a truly seperate balanced processor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 I'm not familiar with it either. For that kind of price differance, I would hope and expect that it be truly balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 To run "truly" balanced, most all of the circuitry in the unit needs to be duplicated. As you might imagine, this is extremely costly. It would almost double the cost of the unit. As is stated above, running "quasi-balanced" is not the same. While some of the common mode noise rejection is available, other benefits of true balanced operation are absent. As for the 6dB of additional gain, this is not an indicator of "true" vs. "quasi" balanced configuration. Either approach to balanced design generates a + waveform and a - waveform (or another way to think of this is two identical waveforms 180 degrees out of phase with one another). Doing so yields a gain increase of 6 dB. IMO, balance mode operation is a new buzz feature. While it is standard in pro gear where long cable runs are the norm and ground loops would be a problem (due to the numerous components in a pro system plugged into separate AC mains circuits), the benefits of balanced operation in consumer gear are overblown. I have both balanced and unbalanced systems and believe that the merits of the products are based on factors beyond their choice of balanced vs. single ended operation. Again, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 well put bob g. keeping ground hum out of microphone cable that ran over 100' was the main reason for a balanced line in the pro audio biz. as far as comparing C2 to a mixing board well that's not even the same thing and what the "mix" (process) are totally different when you factor video and mulitchannel audio. I guess that's why you can buy a 12 channel Peavy board for what was said to be a grand (it's more actually) and a Lexicon MC-12B is $8K+. it may not offer any real true value unless your usind some high powered mono amps with speakers that are not very effecient (below 89 dB). who knows? regards, mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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