Soundstaging Help needed

[jelliott100]

I'm hoping to get some help with curing what I perceive to be a weakness in my system. Specifically, I don't think I'm getting the soundstaging that I should be under some circumstances.

My system consists of the following components. Denon Av2801 receiver (rated at 90 watt p/channel), Pioneer DV525 DVD/CD player, and a pair of Klipsch Heresy II's. My room is 11x17x8 and the walls are wood panel (ie. highly reflective). Speakers are located on the short wall, placed 2 feet from the back and 14 inches from the side walls. I've played around with toe-in and placement quite a bit and I think I have them where they sound the best. Toe-in is at roughly 10-15 degrees I would guess. Floor is carpeted with the listening position at 8 feet from the speakers. The speaker are on the floor with the factory angled risers. I don't know how high this puts the tweeters but they are definitely below ear level when seated in the sweet spot.

My issue. Soundstaging is really good during quiet passages with just a few vocals and 2 or 3 instruments (Diana Krall, for example). Everything is easily located in the soundfield although, there doesn't seem to be a lot of depth. In any case, things sound really good. However, when the music itself begins to get louder and more intruments begin to come into play, the soundfield just seems to collapse into a big mess. Things are still clear, there's no distortion or anything, it's simply that I lose the directionality for the individual instruments. Vocals will stay pretty well centered but it becomes difficult locate specific things in the soundfield the way I can when softer, simpler music is playing. This doesn't seem to be an issue between different recordings, since a single song that starts quiet will sound great until everyone else starts getting in on the act. Again, it's not that it sounds bad, I just feel like I'm missing something, or that it could sound better.

I need to find some direction, I guess, on where to go next. More amp power? Work on room reflections? Better CD source components? Raise the speakers? Is this just the way it is? I really have not heard any truly high-end systems in my life so I suppose my expectations may be unrealistic for my system. I read so much about how great certain music sounds on certain system, though, and I can't help but wonder if I'm missing something substantial. As you can tell by the components I've listed, I haven't spent a great sum on my system and that simply reflects my budget which, like almost everyone else, is limited. I built this system primarily for home theater (although I've had the Heresy's for years) and for HT, I am very satisfied with the sound. I seem to be listening to more and more 2 channel music, though, and I know the Heresy II is capable of some very good sound. I'm simply want to be certain that I'm getting all I can out of what I have.

Any suggestions for where to go next would be very much appreciated.

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--Elliott--

[brian_donaldson]

I'm not an engineer and my understanding of physics is very limited, but I suspect that your problem stems from reflected and conflicting soundwaves at higher SPLs. I had a problem with my belles in my new house, and I have a rather unique listening area. My living room is adjacent to my kitchen; the whole space is probably 15x50. The LR is probably 15x20. Since it connects to the kitchen, there are only 3 walls. Moreover, the walls are three different lenghts, because on one side, the wall between the LR and kitchen is inturrupted by a hallway.

It looks like this

======== ===========

= =

= =

= LR Kit =

=====================

Anyway, I have the belles and TV along the upper wall. When I had the speaks facing the bottom wall, at higher volumes everything went to hell. But I've now toed in the speaks so that the reflections off the rear walls channel the sounds into the hallway (and up into a loft) and the kitchen. It works soooooooooo much better, and the belles really come alive at levels where most people who come over to hear it start to become somewhat uncomfortable at the volume levels that they're unaccustomed to. You might check out www.decware.com They do a lot of DIY speaker enclosures and room treatments for absorption of reflected soundwaves. I think that would take care of the problem.

Your room is pretty big, ever think of la scalas or belles as fronts and moving the heresys to the rear?

B

[jelliott100]

I thought about doing some LaScala's up front but just don't have the budget for them at the moment. I'm using four Heresy II's and an RC-3 for the home theater portion of things right now.

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--Elliott--

[jdm56]

I'd try elevating the speakers and if that seems to help, then get you some good stands that would place the tweeter at or sleightly above seated ear height. Also, anything you can do to absorb early reflections can improve imaging tremendously.

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JDMcCall

[maxg]

I have a pair of Heresy 2's that were connected to a Yamaha 595 surround sound amp. I then bought a Rotel 1080 2 channel power amp. Enter staging. The difference was incredible. May be worth a thought, though since then I have moved to an Accuphase stereo amp (E211) and there was another huge leap forwards.

Then there was the cables.....

It was a long fight - good luck.

[Colin]

the depth of the image is directly related to the distance of the speakers to the front wall (the wall you are facing) - try moving the speaks further out in the room - many speakers should be 3 to 4 feet from the side and the front walls - horns start off in the corners - inch them away from the corners until the image is at its largest - measure the distances and make sure they are exact - to the inch - it makes a difference - sit equidistant from both speaks -

I do not think your room is large - many Master bedrooms and living rooms are about 200 square feet - try angling the horns right at your ears when you are sitting in the sweet spot -

try elavating the horns up to the exact height of your ears when sitting down -

try better cables -

then add a powerful sub-woofer somewhere near the middle of your soundstage

[Colin]

PS - even when set up at its best, the images I have gotten over the years with my big old Cornwalls seems to be more oval in shape, along the front wall, then the wide encompassing circle that some reviewers describe with cone speakers placed far out into the room - while the Klipsch image seems to be wider than what I have heard from top of the line B&Ws, the depth is not there unless the speakers are moved out from the front wall, even then imaging is best with a solo singer and a few instruements, I recently listened to a series of Klipsch speakers up against a series of B&Ws, all of the speakers where several feet away from the fornt and side walls, the difference in imaging between the brands was slight ...

[Colin]

oops, distance from the sweet spot to the front of the speakers should be about double the distance from one speaker to another - in other words, try to put your speakers 1 foot away from the side walls or about 6 feet apart and then sit about 12' away in front of the speakers - not equidistant, but equilatoral ...

try to leave 2' of room behind you and 3' between the speakers and the front wall -

and make sure to try the experiment with really good recordings (if you do not know what makes a good recording, buy an audiophile brand like DMP or Chesky, the Stereophile test CDs are a great choice since they have tests and music on them) ....

[Colin]

PPS - the Diana Krall is a very good CD for this purpose, if the sounds are meshing together on the crescendos, it is not your recording - if the speakers are set-up ideally, then it could be the amount of channel seperation of your CD player, receiver and cables ...

[leok]

I have been working for several years, with substantial success, on what may be a related problem. I believe the root cause is, simply, distortion.

Consider audio material in the frequency domain rather han the time domain (your ears are frequency sensors, not waveshape sensors). Audio material consists of collections of discrete frequencies. Distortion is non-linear and creates sum and difference frequencies based on all of those original frequencies. I suspect that the mere existence of distortion-sourced frequencies is enough for your "ear" to sense that the source is something other than the original instrument. This is why even the slightest distortion (0.1%) can be so harmful.

On to imaging:

Center channel sound will contain equivalent material in the right and left channels. Distortion is likely to produce somewhat similar additions in both channels, so it will remain centrally located, along with its distortion. But, now add different material in the right and left channels. The right channel distortion components are different from the left channel distortion components so what seem to be center channel events are now slewed all over the sound stage because they are sourced by sums and differences of frequencies from different locations.

(Consider a 500Hz center-channel vocal fundamental that is is combining with 800Hz right-channel piano fundamental resulting in 300Hz and 1300Hz distortion products in the right (but not the left) channel. Does your ear try to correlate te newcomers with the piano or the voice?)

Now consider the very complex problem of re-creating a concert hall and orchestra. A flute, 8 feet back and 4 feet left of front & center sounds ok by itself. Now add the rest of the orchestra and all of the echoes that we are supposed to use to re-create the image of the concert hall, plus sums and differences of all of the harmonics. In the end, one begins to wonder why stereo works at all.

My point is, even the smallest amount of distortion can mess up imaging. But, there are solutions.

Klipsch speakers give you very low distortion for your stereo dollar.

Most transistor amplifiers produce substantial distortion at the low powers where Klipsch speakers operate. There are amplifiers that are low in distortion at low power and they will improve the situation. They are worth a try. You only need 5 to ten watts of clean power. If you get a chance, try a tube or transistor class A.

If you use CDs, get a good DAC.

If you play records, get a good, probably class A, phono preamp.

Install RF filters at all amplifier I/O (and at the phono preamp input if you use one).

Remove all but the highest quality operational amplifiers from the audio chain.

If you've done all of this you can now detect differences in interconnect and speaker wires. Monster makes decent cables for reasonable prices (consider the ones that use many strands of individually insulated conductor (Litz wire)).

Beyond that things start to get pretty expensive.

[Colin]

oh god, just had another thought

Diana Krall and the issue of soundstage really gets this tweaking audiophile going, so here are a few other things I found that works ...

1. dampening the CD player with gray Yorkstone paving stone and thick black Home Depot rubber mat to reduce jitter, go to http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tweaks/ to see what I mean

2. dampening the Cornwalls with 40 lbs. of paving stones and black rubber mats, go to http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1299/sandbagging.htm

3. added EMI/RFI surge protector with 350 watt APC Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) to clean up power noise and sags, go to http://www.klipsch.com/index.asp?path=/products/index.asp?frame=y&id=&line=&1

4. mounted tube pre-amp and tube amps on paving stones with rubber mats

5. mounted stereo rack on large Yorkstone paving stone with rubber pad

6. wrapped power cables in rubber pipe insulation

These tweaks seem to add air, darkness, stillness and tightness all of which are crucial for the illusion of a holographic image and a realistic soundstage.

Each of these tweaks rank about a 1 on a scale of ten where the best Stereophile speakers merit a 8,9 or 10 score. Together however, they still only add up to a one or a two speakers, placement, sub-woofers and amplifiers still make far more difference to the sonic illusion and the enjoyment

[Shock-Late]

It's not very easy to get a good soundstage with klipsch speakers. I use Lascalas, and I had to play a lot with their position to get a wide but focused soundstage.

Finally I chose to let them parallel to the front wall, without having the horns pointed at me like i used to do before. But then you need to get a good distance between you and the speakers if you want to hear all the midrange details; if you're too close the sound simply passes "around" your hears, so directional are those little beasts. In my setting the voices are slightly less focused centre-stage than they were when the speakers were toed-in, but the sensation of space, depht and clarity are now much much better and you get also much less "distortions" and "melting" of the sound when you crank the volume up. It took me an entire afternoon to get the proper distance between seat and speakers, tough...

[jelliott100]

Thanks to all for the very helpful comments. I've been spending some time messing around with speaker placement, moving them further out from both the rear and side walls. I've also moved the couch back about a foot. After nearly a full day of fiddling, things are markedly better but I think I still have a ways to go. Loud passages aren't nearly as bad as they were and I hear a fairly wide soundstage. Still, I really have no sensation of depth whatsoever. Everything appears to be pretty much on the same plane.

I plan to experiment a bit more with placement this weekend but ultimately, I think I'm going to build some panels to tame the sidewall reflections that I'm certain are there and see how that affects things.

Thanks again everyone!

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--Elliott--

[Guest BobG]

Putting speakers closer together with less toe-in and further from rear wall will increase depth of image. Closer to wall behind them will increase bass at the expense of imaging. Wide spacing with lots of tow-in decreases depth of image.

All of this is over and above salient comments made above.

[jelliott100]

I continue to experiment. Last night I decided it was easier to move me around than the speakers so I tried moving the sofa out and listening from different positions (and ear levels). I've also put some carpet on the sidewalls to at least slow down some of the reflections coming from there.

I finally plunked myself down on the floor with my ears level with the tweeters and at a distance that was equal to the distance between the two speakers. Major improvement in both staging and clarity during the loud passages. The underlying ringing that is there (but I never really noticed until now) when sitting in the normal couch based listening position was either gone or significantly reduced.

I'm convinced that, with some "real" room treatment and some speaker stands to elevate the Heresy's a bit I can make some significant strides without investing in new hardware, just yet. Although, the next time a pair of Marantz monoblocks show up on ebay, I may not be able to resist.

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--Elliott--

[PaulE]

Elliott,

I would suggest that with just a moderate priced av receiver, what you need most to radically increase your stage is an external, 2 channel amp to connect your front R&L speakers to, and then drive this amp via your front preouts from your REceiver...Dennon Does give you preouts does it not? By buying an inexpensive but very musical 150 wpc Amp3 from Audiosource and hooking it up to my STR-V333ES receiver, my SB-3s on stands all of a sudden produced an amazing stage which was missing when just the receiver alone was driving everything.

[Kevin S]

jelliott, I think that you are on the right track focusing on speaker placement and listening position relationships. My Heresy II's are about 2 1/2 feet from the front wall, 10 feet apart, 12 feet from the listening position, and toed in directly at the listening position. I have found that all of the Klipsch speakers I have owned sound best toed in this way. I think that maximizing the direct sound and minimizing the room reflections lets you hear more of the recording and less of the room. Mine are on the slant risers just like yours.

Lateral imaging is excellent at all volume levels. At least until my ears give out! I did try raising mine on 16 inch stands to see what effect it would have on soundstage height. When a song has info panned hard left or right, it sometimes becomes too speaker specific and sounds lower (in height) than the rest of the image. I found raising the Heresy's cured this problem, but the speakers look quite stupid on stands. Kind of a Mr. Potato Head effect, giant head, puny body. Also, although this is not a problem in my H/T setup, where I roll the bass out of the Heresy's at 80hz to a pair of subs, your bass will probably suffer. The Heresys are designed for floor/corner placement.

I put the speakers back on the floor and have found that since I generally listen to music with my eyes closed and/or in a darkened room, the effect largely disappears. I have found that visual clues can ruin the imaging, causing your brain to localize the sound to objects in the room, such as the speakers, or T.V's, or equipment racks placed between the speakers, etc. I use the H/T in the dark, which has the same positive effect. So try closing your eyes when listening to determine the effects of your changes.

As for image depth, the music I listen to (rock and pop) generally has very little depth recorded in it. So make sure the lack of depth you are concerned about isn't recording related. Also, any objects placed between the speakers will hurt depth of image, so if yours is a stereo only set up, try to make sure you have nothing between the speakers, if possible.

Sorry about the length, but i hope this helps.

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L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II

Surround: Klipsch RS-3

Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2

Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132

AMP: McIntosh MC-7205

DVD: McIntosh MVP-831

CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer

Turntable: Denon DP-72L

Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1

T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905

HDTV: RCA DTC-100

Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000

[jelliott100]

I wrote the following in response to a private email on this posting. Just in case anyone is interested. Thanks to all for the continuing responses on this topic.

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I've done a few different things since I posted about my staging concerns.

First, I did exactly what you described in attacking the early reflections in the room. My wife thought I was crazy having her slide a mirror along the wall but, at this point, she knows I'm weird. We temporarily hung some carpet on the side walls at the appropriate location. The improvement was subtle but noticable. The rooms seems more intimate somehow when listening to music. Soundstaging improved but not drastically. Loud passages still became pretty muddied up.

Next I built a pair of 8 inch speaker stands (MDF and cinderblock construction) and sat the Heresy's on them. Soundstaging was improved yet again, but still quite subtle. Bass response was affected, but with the Sub, that was not really a problem. Things did sound cleaner and more refined, but still, during louder, complex passages.....yuck.

The most recent addition and the one that has had the most profound effect on the sound has been the inclusion of an Acurus 100x3 to power the front three speakers. The improvement here was not subtle in the least. Everything is more detailed, more refined and just flat out cleaner sounding. Even my wife noticed the difference within about 10 seconds of listening. Most satisfying, however, has been the improvement to the quailty of the sound during the louder, more complex parts of music that I have been so troubled with. Detail and clarity is much, much better, individual instruments are more easily discernable and the music simply sounds less strained and more...well....musical. This has been a revelation and considering what I paid for the amp, quite a bargain!

I've thought about doing the speaker cables but I'm using the higher end Monster wire now and I've promised myself (not to mention my wife) that I'd take a 6 month hiatus from stereo purchases. At the very least, that should give me time to get very acquainted with how things sound before I begin adding things again.

I know there's room for further improvement but things sound quite good to my ears at the moment. My only remaining complaint is a lack of depth in the soundstage. I get very good localization across but it still seems almost flat as far as the depth goes.

In any case, it certainly is fun tinkering around with it and I frequently experience moments of sheer joy listening to my cd's, which is what it's all about, I suppose.

Thanks again for the note and advice!

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--Elliott--

Heresy Mains (Birch)

Heresy Surrounds (Walnut)

RC-3 Center

(Because a C7 won't fit!)

SVS 20-39cs/Samson S700

Denon 2801

JVC D-Series

Pioneer DV-525

[Jim Cornell]

You guys might think im nuts, but with one pair of cornwalls, and with one pair of quintets up high between them, the soundstage is enhanced!!

Its pretty amazing, what the little quintets do for center soundstage, without the cornwalls, i can barely hear them, with the cornwalls, if i turn the quintets off, i can hear the difference, on how full the sound stage is!!

With both pair of cornwalls running, i dont even turn the quintets on!!

When i say center sounstage, im meaning, no loss in the sound, throughout the whole listening spectrum!!

So its all sound where my sytem is! No loss, if i move from side to side!

I was going to put the quintets in my van, but they didnt make it there!

Have fun regards Jim

[Kevin S]

jelliott, when you said the sound fell apart when you played it loud, you must have really meant LOUD. It never occured to me that you might be pushing the Denon so close to or completely into clipping. This is the only reason I can think of that would have caused the amp to make such a complete mess of your sound. Unless it is just malfunctioning in general, which is unlikely, I think. With the Heresy's so able to play loudly on 5 or 10 watts, it never occured to me that 90 watts would not be enough. Anyway, sorry for having you chase your tail in circles, so to speak. From now on I'll have to remember to remember that what is now loud for me must not be loud for others.

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L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II

Surround: Klipsch RS-3

Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2

Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132

AMP: McIntosh MC-7205

DVD: McIntosh MVP-831

CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer

Turntable: Denon DP-72L

Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1

T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905

HDTV: RCA DTC-100

Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000