jnorv Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I have 30 year old Sony belt drive TT with a SME 3 arm and blue point cartridge vs a Sony 777ES. I prefer the SACD. I keep reading that the vinyl setup is much better, but that is not my experience. Jim N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Some people swear by vinyl, others swear at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 i know that some vinyl setups can sound very good..... but ...(as i read on another forum)....have you ever heard a recording engineer say that the vinyl recording sounds just like the original studio recording???? i never have..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 ---------------- On 10/22/2003 9:37:05 PM jnorv wrote: I have 30 year old Sony belt drive TT with a SME 3 arm and blue point cartridge vs a Sony 777ES. I prefer the SACD. I keep reading that the vinyl setup is much better, but that is not my experience. Jim N ---------------- Something to remember is that your Sony is not even close to the state of the art in vinyl playback. A more fair comparison would be with a good modern table and arm with a top notch cartridge. SACD may still come out on top, but it would be a lot closer contest. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 This is not impossible - its just rare. Of course we could go through all the more obvious things to check first, like: 1. Is your 30 year old TT still performing well - how is the speed? Have you checked it recently? I just recently discoverd my own TT was running very slow as the motor mounting had disintegrated and the motor had fallen forward - loosening the belt. 2. Have you got the arm/cartridge properly setup? Tracking weight, Azimuth etc? 3. How old is the cartrdige? 4. What phono stage are you using? The problem with TT's is that they need constant attention. Kept at their operating best it is difficult to beat the sound. Allow them to degenerate, however, and CD will beat them hands down. Hell, MP3 will beat them if things are really off. If you prefer SACD and want to stay with that format then all power to you. I flirted with SACD a couple of years back (although with a much lesser player) and was impressed at first, only to discover that a TT is even better (for me). As others have said the comparison isnt really a fair one. I would fancy that a relatively inexpensive (compared to the cost of the 777 that is) newer TT (Project, MusicHall etc.) would give your SACD player more of a run for its money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 ---------------- On 10/22/2003 9:37:05 PM jnorv wrote: I have 30 year old Sony belt drive TT with a SME 3 arm and blue point cartridge vs a Sony 777ES. I prefer the SACD. I keep reading that the vinyl setup is much better, but that is not my experience. Jim N ---------------- I have a Clearaudio Champion TT with an upgraded Rega RB250 arm and Benz Micro Ace cartridge vs a Sony 222ES SACD changer. With the TT sounding somewhat better than the 222ES, my results were different than yours. Maybe it's because I have a higher level TT and lower level SACD changer. Who knows? But I will say that the 222 still sounds very good. Good enough that I have slowed down buying vinyl records and have been concentrating on finding records I like on SACD. Not to mention soon I'm probably going to send the 222 to one of the "mod" experts for some upgrades. How it breaks down for me - TT Pros - fabulous sound, availability of music not on CD or SACD, gets you involved by not only the sound but also by the fact you need to pay more attention to the operation, it's fun to futz with records, LP album art, analog is better for your brain Cons - Not a tremendous amount of new music available on vinyl, futzing with the cleaning and playing of vinyl is fun...to a point, auidophile recordings are expensive and too often records need to be returned due to defects. SACD Pros - very good sound (probably 95% of what I get from good vinyl as opposed to the 80%-85% I felt regular cd was), easy to operate (putting in 5 discs and pressing "shuffle" sure is nice), player and software prices are coming down Cons - Not a huge selection of music available yet, format wars or how long term is this format going to be? (I still have my laser disc player) Bottom line is that SACD is sound I can live with, but I'm not giving up my vinyl. Having both is a great mix. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I don't want to start a war, but I'm a bit igonorant on Vinyl (the record type, that is) Anyways, ChrisK brings up an interesting point with the availability of both SACD & Vinyl. A realitvely significant fraction of the sterophiles swear by the "vinyl sound" and IF I had to stereo-type the vinyl users, I would guess that a vast majority of them are old enough to predate CDs. So they might have (quite significant) collections of vinyl records. However, for the younger crowd who grew up with CDs and the digital age, we don't have a vinyl collection and our music tastes are probably quite different then that of someone older. Given this fact, where does one find RECENT music on vinyl, do they still release stuff on vinyl? -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hi Dave, You bring up an interesting point. I predate the CD (sometimes I feel like I predate the gramaphone, but I don't ). My son recently showed me a store where you can indeed buy newly released vinyl. I don't think it's anything I would listen to, but if this crowd found the benefits of vinyl, who knows where this will go, unless of course the format war is won and there is a ton of old releases rereleased. Anyway, he got Poison the Well's Tear from Red on Trustkill records. Do a search on the web, there are also places that reissue 180 gram vinyl of older stuff. Here's another one: http://www.simplyvinyl.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shank2001 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I bet this store where you can get new stuff on vinyl was a trance/techno/dance/hiphop/ type of store, right? The reason people that listen to these types of music prefer vinyl is not because it sounds better, it is because it is easier to mix, DJ style. Records have a huge market in the Trance genre.... HUGE! DJs almost always use records, but it has nothing to do with sound quality. There are some CD mixing stations that are starting to catch on now, but they are harder to use than using your hands directly on a record to mix. In fact mixes that were made using CDs cost more generally because of the higher sound quality. If you don't understand what I have been saying, you probably predate the Cassette Tape . Regards, Sean ---------------- On 10/23/2003 2:58:36 PM AndyKubicki wrote: Hi Dave, You bring up an interesting point. I predate the CD (sometimes I feel like I predate the gramaphone, but I don't ). My son recently showed me a store where you can indeed buy newly released vinyl. I don't think it's anything I would listen to, but if this crowd found the benefits of vinyl, who knows where this will go, unless of course the format war is won and there is a ton of old releases rereleased. Anyway, he got Poison the Well's Tear from Red on Trustkill records. Do a search on the web, there are also places that reissue 180 gram vinyl of older stuff. Here's another one: http://www.simplyvinyl.com/ ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I can't say, but son seems to think that they are mostly punk recordings. I sure didn't se anything familiar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Well, the cartridge is new. I went thru and rechecked all of the arm settings. This arm even has a transverse balance adjustment. The turntable, although 30 years old, seems to be OK. It has a variable speed controller with a strobe synch read out, so that I can set the speed pretty close. I even went out a bought a new Kind of Blue to compare to my SACD version. I still prefer the SACD. Jim N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I think whatever was mastered best sounds best. I think mastering is much more important than the medium. Leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 I have read that it only takes one bad op-amp in the reproduction stream to screw up a finished product. That may be part of the reason that Mallet has such good sound with his digital recordings. He basically is doing direct to disc. Jim N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 ---------------- On 10/23/2003 7:54:40 PM leok wrote: I think whatever was mastered best sounds best. I think mastering is much more important than the medium. ---------------- Certainly Leo, but it means nothing to compare a horribly mastered CD with a wonderfully mastered LP, for example. The question is, given excellent mastering for both, which will win out. And the undeniable fact is that SACD will. SACDs are not supposed to sound like LPs. An LP is not the ultimate thing to compare some other format to. The open reel master tape is. And everyone who works with SACD says it is virtually indistinguishable from the master open reel tape. Obviously some people prefer LPs no matter what. This is probably due to several factors, including liking whatever the cartridge and stylus is doing to color the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 It's great when you love them both for different reasons and you're able to find cheap, well cared for lps. I can buy 25 nice lps for the price of 1 cd (most of the time). I also pre-date cds so I have an existing collection. LPs are fun but time consuming and space hogs. Still fun. I've found I prefer original lps to re-released cds but when a it's a new release on cd it can really shine. Mixing it up keeps things interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 "I have read that it only takes one bad op-amp in the reproduction stream to screw up a finished product. That may be part of the reason that Mallet has such good sound with his digital recordings. He basically is doing direct to disc. Jim N" some of the best vinyl recordings that i have ever heard were the "direct to disc" recordings from the 1980's.... the musicians basically recorded one side of an album without any stops... the recording "needle" was turned on and the group started playing.... there was no stopping or going back.... they recorded directly to the pressing master on one side of an album..... these discs predate cd and are very hard to find now..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 On the positive side, I think I have lost a few pounds with the added exercise of changing record sides every 15 minutes. Jim N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 ---------------- On 10/23/2003 5:36:34 PM AndyKubicki wrote: I can't say, but son seems to think that they are mostly punk recordings. I sure didn't se anything familiar... ---------------- Power To The Punk People! fini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 I know many of my good friends here love vinyl. Every time the subject of LP versus CD comes up I kinda hold my fingers away from the keyboard. I grew up on shellac and vinyl. The disks damage easly, the turntables are difficult to optimize, LPs etc are useless in a car, bus, boat, etc. It made a lot of sense that inferior systems like cassette or 8-track made such rapid inroads. CD's given a good recording job were so much better. There is a general complaint over prices. An LP in 1970 was about $5 and now CDs are $15 or so. They last a long time, have better specs overall. Plus many old releases which went out of print on LP came back on CD. You can duplicate them on a computer, for back up. Gosh, what more can one ask for? Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 "Certainly Leo, but it means nothing to compare a horribly mastered CD with a wonderfully mastered LP, for example. The question is, given excellent mastering for both, which will win out. And the undeniable fact is that SACD will." Undeniable fact??? Well - not my experience but there you go. I do wonder how much better a really good SACD player is over the one I used to have (Sony NS900). The best I got out of the SACD player was slightly better (maybe) than a well recorded CD - and in some cases not quite as good. Case in point Jacintha Here's to Ben on XRCD Vs. same on SACD. Of the people that listened to it the majority prefered the XRCD. (Note: The XRCD was playing on a Marantz CD6000 Vs the SACD playing on the Sony. The CD6000 is far from being a top of the line CD player but it did do a much better job than the sony on CD's with the added benefit that it made switching, for comparison, very easy.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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