Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 12, 2004 Author Share Posted March 12, 2004 ok, now I'm almost embarrased to have put that image up there. Thanks for the images, griff. It makes it much clearer. Just wish you would have done it 10 minutes earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 Hey Griff, I've been poking around Ethans' site and haven't been able to find the wall images you posted above. Judging from the rest of his site, I'd guess it's accompanied by some good descriptions. Could you point me to where on his site you found those? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 lol... Did anyone notice the third composition "Double insulated stud wall", STC 40, with one gypsum installed on each interior stud?? Installing TWO sheets on gypsum board in the centre on either stud has proven to be quite a challenge to all the installers I've known. Kinda wonder how they actually tested it in the first place? You can also take a look at CGC Drywall/Wood Framed Systems SA924 PDF if you are looking for many different tested compositions... later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 ---------------- On 3/18/2004 9:59:19 AM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: Hey Griff, I've been poking around Ethans' site and haven't been able to find the wall images you posted above. Judging from the rest of his site, I'd guess it's accompanied by some good descriptions. Could you point me to where on his site you found those? Thanks. ---------------- Ethan posted that pic on his forum over at musicplayer.com . That's where I picked it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 ---------------- On 3/18/2004 10:34:00 AM formica wrote: lol... Did anyone notice the third composition "Double insulated stud wall", STC 40, with one gypsum installed on each interior stud?? Installing TWO sheets on gypsum board in the centre on either stud has proven to be quite a challenge to all the installers I've known. Kinda wonder how they actually tested it in the first place? You can also take a look at CGC Drywall/Wood Framed Systems SA924 PDF if you are looking for many different tested compositions... later... Rob ---------------- Pretty easily - prefab the walls prior to installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 ---------------- On 3/18/2004 12:04:34 PM Griffinator wrote: Pretty easily - prefab the walls prior to installation. ---------------- Apart from being difficult to do for a test sample, it won't produce a good junction detail. I realise that it wasn't too important to him as it's not his recommended assembly, but it just isn't feasible on a large scale. Rob PS: If using steel studs and 1" shaftwall gypsum, you can use CH studs and lots of caulk to accomplish something similar in real life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 Oh great. Now I've got ANOTHER 3 months of reading through old posts and archives regarding room design and treatments. Seriously though, thanks Griff. From what I've seen so far, looks like a lot of pretty well informed folks over there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 4:04:11 PM Griffinator wrote: ---------------- On 3/12/2004 12:39:11 PM artto wrote: I do have one correction though, possibly its just a grammatical error. The decoupled wall(s) need to be on the outside walls. If the situation were such that high sound pressure levels, especially at low frequencies, were not going to be produced in the room, say something like a classroom bordering an adjacent washroom or utility room, then decoupling the walls on the inside or both sides makes sense. But for our purposes, flexing, vibrating walls, floors & ceiling surfaces just adds coloration & distortion to the sound. ---------------- Here's a picture of various wall implementations and their absorption factors (from Ethan's website) If you sheetrock the inside portion of this iso-wall (and the inside portion of the adjacent room wall), you gain more net absorption (17dB net increase) than if you sheetrock both sides of both walls. ---------------- Griff......you're still not getting it right. You are confusing two different issues/terminology. STC is "S ound T ransmission C lass". It is NOT an 'absorption' rating. There are actually two versions of transmission loss ratings. The Average Transmission Loss (TL) rating, and the STC rating. STC is the newer & preferred method of rating the performance of sound isolating (notice I said ISOLATING, NOT ABSORPTION!) constructions. It is used to determine if a wall or floor construction will offer sufficient resistance to sound transmission, so that the transmitted sound level is below the background noise level in the listening room. It is a method of rating performance of sound isolating constructions. The STC is a single number rating for airbourne sound which represents the transmission loss performance of a wall or floor at all test frequencies. The higher the rating, the more efficient the construction. The STC rating is derived by plotting the curve of the transmission loss for a given construction, tested at 16 frequencies ranging from 125Hz to 4000Hz; the transmission loss curve is then compared to a standard frequency curve, also called a reference contour. There are certain deviations or tolerances allowed which I wont get into here. The STC rating is the numerical value which corresponds to the sound transmission loss value at 500Hz. The ASTM test procedure was first issued in 1950 & has been extensively revised since that time. Many of the currently published STC ratings for various constructions are based on tests performed prior to current ASTM test procedures. The various wall configurations posted on Ethan Winers site are quite limited & remedial. Let it suffice that there are many, many more ways to skin the cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I am duly corrected. I'd rather be schooled publicly in a non-critical situation than to be schooled by direct experience in a client's house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 19, 2004 Author Share Posted March 19, 2004 As I would much rather be schooled pre-construction than after the fact. Have two nice long, deep scratches on my face this morning, doing de-construction again yesterday afternoon and had a 14' long board from one of the soffets come down on me, nails sticking out in 6 directions, guess I don't "duck" as fast as I used to. At least the guys here at the shop are having a good time coming up with new names for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 OUCH! Damn, bro. I told you about hitting the bowl before work, dammit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 19, 2004 Author Share Posted March 19, 2004 Actually, this was at home, tearing down what I can do myself before they bulldoze the house in a few weeks. Going to be living in an 18' pull behind trailer on the edge of the lake for a few months as the new house is being built. Wife, 4 yr old daughter, myself and an 85 lb yellow lab. It's going to be an interesting summer. At least I'll be there every day to monitor progress on the house. About ready to head out again today, have nothing left of the shed but the studs for the walls and the roof, plan on hooking up a chain to the car and just pulling the whole thing over. Stopping to get a burning permit on the way home, it's amazing how big of a pile of crap you can make out of just a 12 x 14 shed. I'd hoped to be able to save the barn boards that the walls were made of, but it would have taken me a month to get the thing down in a careful enough fashion to salvage them. There are lots of nail holes, had sheet metal siding nailed to it, then the nail holes that attached the boards themselves to the stud. Besides, it's kinda fun to just rip and shred. Crow bar and sledge hammer, baby. Maybe I should be wearing a hard hat and full face shield this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted April 2, 2004 Author Share Posted April 2, 2004 Back on topic... It's looking like the long wall is gonna end up at 22'. That's including the space required outside the visable walls to make some dead air space between them and the 2nd, outside walls. I've poked a few numbers into a room mode calculator, but am unsure which one would be the best for the short wall. All of this using the half room principle, I can't change the height of the room, but I can ammend for it with treatments after it's built. Anyone want to comment on a particular width and for what reason? back off topic... Anyone want a perfectly good 24 X 16 single car garage, metal outsides, metal roof, plenty of room on both sides of the car for storage/shelving, 6 x 6 support posts? The SECOND guy that was going to take it backed off, looks like I have another project for the weekend, tearing it down, woohoo. Any takers need to reply in 8 seconds, cause I'm logging off and heading home, and won't be reading any replies till Mon am when it's hopefully all on the ground and waiting for burning restrictions to come off so I can have another huge wiene roast!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 from ARTO "Somehow, recently this idea of 'virtual' room size has come into play as if the sound can 'see' the walls beyond the walls. It's simply an excuse for someone's ego to justify in their mind that their room is somehow larger than it really is and that they can benefit from it. It's BS. And its not what you want anyway. In fact, its something to be avoided." Is this why all stereo and PA's sound like a million bucks when outdoors? They are freed from room constraints that cause standing waves and 'peaky' low freq performance? Arto, would appreciate your thoughts re my STIFF room in basement. Am I better off leaving concrete block walls and taming standing waves with Ethan's bass traps, or building drywall walls first? (I think I know your answer to this) That being said, then is it possible to locate the offending frequencies by room measurement or use of db meter and test tones? Would it then be possible to construct the bass traps specifically designed to tame the offending frequencies, or am I taking this whole thing too far? When installing the bass traps, I understand placing an array of them in the corners of the room, but my basement room is 'L' shaped. Would I be able to just fill the outer corner of the 'L", which would give an array on each of the two sets of parallel walls, or should they be installed throughout the room? (I'm thinking of the WAF here, it's possible to paint/fabric a few panels, but not 50% of the wall surface) Thanks Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted December 11, 2004 Author Share Posted December 11, 2004 ---------------- On 3/12/2004 12:39:11 PM artto wrote: Griff, correct..now youre beginning to understand the whole picture a little better. You really need isolation to yield the best room performance. There are 3 main acoustical aspects, and each of those have their own sub-categories of implementation. Isolation, Absorption and Diffusion. Just doing one, or two & not the other will not yield the desired results. I do have one correction though, possibly its just a grammatical error. The decoupled wall(s) need to be on the outside walls. If the situation were such that high sound pressure levels, especially at low frequencies, were not going to be produced in the room, say something like a classroom bordering an adjacent washroom or utility room, then decoupling the walls on the inside or both sides makes sense. But for our purposes, flexing, vibrating walls, floors & ceiling surfaces just adds coloration & distortion to the sound. ------- end quote If I'm reading this right, I should use some sort of channel to mount the sheetrock to on the wall that is OUTSIDE of the room where the noise is coming from? Since this wall has both the shop and listening room on the other side, I have both music and noise, i.e. saws, drills, etc. Solid, double sheetrock on the inside, sound producing room, then double offset studs with insulation and some sort of sound membrane inside the wall, then double, but decoupled, channel mounted wall on the quiet, living area side of the wall? I hope that makes sense. Oh yeah, again, should I caulk both sides of the wall, or is the inside, sound producing wall the most important? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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