colterphoto1 Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Hello Klipsch Fans! I'm closing on an existing home soon and the first bit of business for this 4000 ft2 ranch is rewiring and re-engineering all the various av components for the new home. My question is multipurpose. First, here is my initial layout for some various systems. My 'formal living room' which will be used for my photo gallery and client viewing room via Canon projector onto 8' screen will be my 'nice' theatre room with new Yamaha? 5.1 receiver, and all new Klipsch Reference system front and centers for clairity and size, along with my Definitive BiPolar surrounds. Sub is Klipsch RS15. Main source will be DVD/CD player and laptop computer for Photo displays (I'm a wedding photographer) My 'old' system will go the the basement rock and roll room and consist of 35" Sony direct tube TV, Yamaha 850 HT receiver, Cornwalls, RC7, and new Klipsch RS7 surrounds (need efficiency here since 850 is only 30 watts to rear channels). This will be the main 2-channel listening environment and party room with bar, pool table, etc. This will have CD changer, Cassette, DVD, and turntable (yes vinyl still rocks!) Oh, yeah almost forgot- how bout a Crown 1200 amp and two JBL 18" PA cabinets for subs! The bedroom small seating area will host a 27" Mitsu TV with small surround receiver and a Klipsch 4x KSP1.1 and KSC-C1 centre. DVD/CD plugged into for source material. My office will utilize my iMac as digital 'jukebox' and is connected to a Yamaha 596 Stereo receiver and Dahlquist 8" 2-way bookshelves. It will be the heart of the distributed sound system and will output line levels to the Gallery theatre system and a power amp. There will be inceiling speakers in Kitchen, bedroom, family room, and KSB1.1's in back porch and outside under eaves) These may need to be run with transformers. QUESTIONS What do ya think? Should I configure my systems differently? How to run line levels from Office receiver to Gallery room about 30 feet away. Probably will have to change Hi-Z to Lo-Z and back again at the other end? Any hints on acoustical control in basement party room. Walls are concrete block, floor is vinyl tile on concrete, ceiling is plaster. It's REAL ringy. I'm thinking about hanging some panels of still yellow building fibreglass (1-2" thick) slightly away from walls and cover with cool fabric. Rugs on walls were possible, and lots of upholstered furniture. Any more suggestions? Thanks gang! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 use rg-6 coax for your long audio/video(rg-59 90%copper shield may be better for video)and subwoofer runs. i have many times and it works GREAT! avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Colter, I think you'll find that the 'pro audio' 18" JBL 'subs' aren't really subs in the high fidelity sense. These are used primarily for PA sound reinforcement. Their cutoff frequency is actually much higher than the Cornwalls. The -3dB point is probably around 50Hz (low G on a Bass) or higher. I played bass thru a pair of dual 18's powered by a 2000watt Carver plus my 800watt Hartke stage rig in a metal/hard rock band about 2 years ago. They could make you dizzy even when using solid closed cell foam ear plugs. Even then, you could hear & feel the response fall off at the lower notes. I don't think it would be a good match for the Cornwalls at all. And for acoustical treatments check out my thread 'artto's klipschorn room' in the Architectural topics area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I'll see if I can break this down a step at a time: ---------------- First, here is my initial layout for some various systems. My 'formal living room' which will be used for my photo gallery and client viewing room via Canon projector onto 8' screen will be my 'nice' theatre room with new Yamaha? 5.1 receiver, and all new Klipsch Reference system front and centers for clairity and size, along with my Definitive BiPolar surrounds. Sub is Klipsch RS15. Main source will be DVD/CD player and laptop computer for Photo displays (I'm a wedding photographer) ----------------- No worries here, sounds like a solid package. I still hate bipolar speakers, but hey, it's your room. ----------------- My 'old' system will go the the basement rock and roll room and consist of 35" Sony direct tube TV, Yamaha 850 HT receiver, Cornwalls, RC7, and new Klipsch RS7 surrounds (need efficiency here since 850 is only 30 watts to rear channels). This will be the main 2-channel listening environment and party room with bar, pool table, etc. This will have CD changer, Cassette, DVD, and turntable (yes vinyl still rocks!) Oh, yeah almost forgot- how bout a Crown 1200 amp and two JBL 18" PA cabinets for subs! ------------------ I agree wholeheartedly with Artto. PA "Subs" are not what you're after. PA "Subs" pick up the slack where the full-range PA systems don't drive - usually 60-120Hz range, not the full blown HT sub frequencies you probably want out of these. I'd sell the amp and speakers and go get yourself a couple of SVS subs - now THAT will rock that Cornwall system. ------------------- The bedroom small seating area will host a 27" Mitsu TV with small surround receiver and a Klipsch 4x KSP1.1 and KSC-C1 centre. DVD/CD plugged into for source material. ------------------- Right. Nifty little bedroom package... ------------------- My office will utilize my iMac as digital 'jukebox' and is connected to a Yamaha 596 Stereo receiver and Dahlquist 8" 2-way bookshelves. It will be the heart of the distributed sound system and will output line levels to the Gallery theatre system and a power amp. There will be inceiling speakers in Kitchen, bedroom, family room, and KSB1.1's in back porch and outside under eaves) These may need to be run with transformers. -------------------- Actually, I'd suggest a multi-room amplifier. Sherbourn makes a really nice 12-channel amplifier that would work beautifully with this package, plus leave you room to add on a couple more pairs of speakers (if you get that wild hair and suddenly want speakers in the attic/garage/yard) --------------------- QUESTIONS What do ya think? Should I configure my systems differently? --------------------- See above. --------------------- How to run line levels from Office receiver to Gallery room about 30 feet away. Probably will have to change Hi-Z to Lo-Z and back again at the other end? --------------------- You've got some options here. There are cable companies that sell long-run interconnects like that, or you can get CL-3 rated bulk interconnect cable if you're good at attaching ends. Yeah, you could also do what AVMan suggests, using two long runs of plain RG-6 coax. I wouldn't recommend it, but hey - YMMV. ---------------------- Any hints on acoustical control in basement party room. Walls are concrete block, floor is vinyl tile on concrete, ceiling is plaster. It's REAL ringy. I'm thinking about hanging some panels of still yellow building fibreglass (1-2" thick) slightly away from walls and cover with cool fabric. Rugs on walls were possible, and lots of upholstered furniture. Any more suggestions? ---------------- Leave that floor bare. Hang 1-2" thick rigid Owens-Corning 703 from the ceiling (don't staple it down, it'll lose a lot of its LF absorption capabilites) and apply panels of same on about 1/4 of the wall space (be creative! Do up some nice designs!) Add bass traps in the corners at the ceiling, and blammo, you've got a nicely balanced room that still sounds big! Hope this helps! Griff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 Thanks for the input. I'll nix the JBL 18's for subs, even though I have an electronic x-over I could run them through. I'll just keep em for band pa or to honk off the neighbors. I am currently enjoying the SW15 sub (only 100 watts) with my Cornwalls and can really tell the difference with the 'slam' on movies. Should I stay with a dedicated HT-type sub then? Assuming that I like the addition of a sub to the Corns, what would be the best match? Am I going to have to spring for big $$ for RSW15 THE BIG MOMMA??? Don't understand how catv RG6 wire would be adequate to run line level signal between remote systems. I'll check with my local AV installer, but I still think some type of transformer would be necessary to maintain high fidelity. Re bipolars- hey, I've already got em, they're white, so they would blend in nicely, and this is the 'nicey-nicey' HT room, the basement Heritage Klipsch system would be where I would watch concerts and destructo-movies. Thanks for acoustical hints. I take it that is the stiff yellow fiberglass that is used for commercial ductwork and is also found in the walls of office cubicles. I plan on hanging several panels from the ceiling, parallel to the walls, about 2 inches from the walls. Perhaps treat the room as the interior of a speaker cabinet? Do I only need treatment on one of each set of parallel walls to break up standing waves, or should the treatment be symmetrical to my speaker setup and listening position? I REALLY don't want to put anything on the ceiling, it's low enough already. As an ex-sound man for bands (live stuff, not studio) I understand some things about acoustical control, but what do CORNER baffles do?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 ---------------- On 3/4/2004 9:14:27 PM colterphoto1 wrote: Thanks for the input. I'll nix the JBL 18's for subs, even though I have an electronic x-over I could run them through. I'll just keep em for band pa or to honk off the neighbors. I am currently enjoying the SW15 sub (only 100 watts) with my Cornwalls and can really tell the difference with the 'slam' on movies. Should I stay with a dedicated HT-type sub then? Assuming that I like the addition of a sub to the Corns, what would be the best match? Am I going to have to spring for big $$ for RSW15 THE BIG MOMMA??? Don't understand how catv RG6 wire would be adequate to run line level signal between remote systems. I'll check with my local AV installer, but I still think some type of transformer would be necessary to maintain high fidelity. Re bipolars- hey, I've already got em, they're white, so they would blend in nicely, and this is the 'nicey-nicey' HT room, the basement Heritage Klipsch system would be where I would watch concerts and destructo-movies. Thanks for acoustical hints. I take it that is the stiff yellow fiberglass that is used for commercial ductwork and is also found in the walls of office cubicles. I plan on hanging several panels from the ceiling, parallel to the walls, about 2 inches from the walls. Perhaps treat the room as the interior of a speaker cabinet? Do I only need treatment on one of each set of parallel walls to break up standing waves, or should the treatment be symmetrical to my speaker setup and listening position? I REALLY don't want to put anything on the ceiling, it's low enough already. As an ex-sound man for bands (live stuff, not studio) I understand some things about acoustical control, but what do CORNER baffles do?? ---------------- Re: The cabling: I carry Ultralink, and can get you some nice deals on either of the two options I mentioned. Drop me a PM. The acoustic treatments: - no, it's not the same stuff that you see on commercial ductwork, nor is it the stuff on office cubicle walls. You've got to ask for it by name - it's hard-compressed fiberglass that comes in 4x8 sheets just like plywood - thicknesses from 1" through 4". - no, you don't need to treat your room like the inside of a speaker cabinet. Quite the contrary - if you put too much of the stuff up, your room will sound like a mattress factory. If you apply full coverage to the ceiling while leaving the floors bare, you'll break up the flutter reflections. By applying strategic coverage on the walls (several folks have reported that checkerboard type patterns work extremely well) you break up the cross-reflections. - By installing bass traps or "baffles" as you refer to them (for a cool DIY bass trap design, check this link: http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html ) in the corners, you break up the standing waves, which almost always originate in the corners anyhow. If the room is an odd shape (as in not rectangular or square) then you may have standing waves in other parts of the room, and you'd need to test with an SPL meter and a sine-wave series to find them. As a secondary component of the acoustic discussion: When I moved into my current house, I set up a makeshift "studio" in a semi-finished room in my basement. I smugly pulled out my Furman Q-602 dual 30-band graphic equalizer, thinking that I could make some simple corrections and have a decent sounding playback system (since most of what I do is post-production) Boy, was I wrong. I had variances up to +/- 25dB on the 1/3 octave sines I was using (I made my own test CD which output 20-second bursts of each frequency) That wasn't even the worst part. I assumed that, in a given spot (the "sweet" spot I created for myself) that I'd get pretty identical responses out of both speakers. Wrong again. I found the room's standing waves in a HELL of a hurry - I heard them! I tested 500Hz on left and right channels several times. The left side was outputting next to nothing on the SPL meter (pointed straight at the speaker) but I could HEAR the tones it was putting out. I got the bright idea to point the meter at the right speaker - BAM! Response shot right up. Moved a little closer to the corner of the room - response rose 10dB! I had my standing wave, and it was in the front corner of the room, 5 feet from my right speaker. I had to use a bass trap. No avoiding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 Thanks for the acoustics info Griff! EVERYONE should read this, - By installing bass traps or "baffles" as you refer to them (for a cool DIY bass trap design, check this link: http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html ) in the corners, you break up the standing waves, which almost always originate in the corners anyhow. If the room is an odd shape (as in not rectangular or square) then you may have standing waves in other parts of the room, and you'd need to test with an SPL meter and a sine-wave series to find them This article and construction details fully explain what is wrong with most listening/control rooms and how to correct it. I'm going to download his 'standing wave' calculator and construct the appropriate bass traps to control the sound in my basement listening room. This Ethan Winer is a very interesting fellow indeed. Thanks bunches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 No problem! Ethan Winer is one of the most respected authorities on studio acoustic control. His company (RealTraps) makes some really nice traps at reasonable prices, for those of us who are, shall we say, "woodworking challenged" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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