designing for new house

[BruinsFan]

Never owned Klipsch speakers before. Building a new house and the contractor for the low voltage uses Klipsch. Wanting to take as much advantage speaker placement while the house is being built.

The room in question is 19x19x9. There are several exits from the room - so it's fairly open. Because of the exits (archways) and window plancements - you can't really put rear speakers in the sidewalls or rear wall. I don't want them on stands - so the ceiling seems like the only option. Going with RCR-5 for rears then.

how much do I look by putting them in the ceiling?? Is this a really poor option? Just for point of reference I have Energy speakers now and the rears are dipoles currently on speaker stands.

What speakers (fronts, center, sub) would then work best with the RCR-5 and the room size? Music and moview are equally important. I don't listen to music blast music too often - but want to "wow" company. Movies is where I usually test the speakers a bit more. I don't want to just throw the biggest speaker in the room and have it be overkill it.

I currently run an Yamaha reciever (but will probably upgrade) with Energy speakers all around. The fronts have dual 6.5 inch drivers. The Sub is an 8" front firing. I don't think the 8" can keep pace with the fronts - should've gone with the 10" but that rarely comes up.

Don't get me wrong - I like the energy speakers (they are mid-range models) - not sure how they compare to Klipsh - I just can't put the rears in the walls and they'll work good in the bonus room

[slowjoe24]

I love my RCR-5's they sound great. I installed them above my couch. See my set-up for more details.....Good Luck, Joe

[BruinsFan]

did you or do you have any concerns with not being able to move them? I've also thought of maybe doing 6.1 system - possible using RCR3s - since there's only so much ceiling space.

What made you go with the RF7s? I've been thinking about the RF5s. I like the RF7 better - but speakers are large - not sure how they'd look at home. RF5 seemed to be a good selection considering sound, size and price. But I'm not sold on that choice just yet.

so many choices......

[slowjoe24]

Quote below was my initial post after buying the RF-7's. I'll give you an update tonight after I get home on how they are after I have used them a few months. Joe

"Hey Guy's,

I bought the "Big One's".....................I got a new pair of RF-7's and the matching RC-7 on Friday! I also, picked up a pair of thr RCR-5's in-ceiling speakers. I will wait until I have a good weekend to do the cutting into my ceiling.

As the salesguy switched between the RF-7's and the RF-35's, to me there was no compairing to do! I was sold on the sound

After I have time, I will type a full review of them for those who were like me and trying to decide weather to pull the triger on the 7's.

Here is what I can say so far..................Unreal!! All I have hooked up is the front's and it already sounds like I have the full surround going!! I guess it's the imaging I Honestly have never heard anything like these. Those who have said "It's like watching a new movie"......they are correct! You hear little things that you never knew where recorded into the soundtrack. I can't explain it, but I LIKE it!

Oh well...............I guess you can tell I am sold on the Klipsch line of products, and espically the 7's up front!

I have attached a photo....hope you can see it! (How do folks post a thread with the photo already showing up?)

See Ya"

[artto]

I'm not sure what your objectives are, but IMHO, you're starting out on the wrong foot, and the 'room' couldn't possibly be more 'wrong' for listening to either music or for home theater.

First of all the dimensions are particularly bad. The 19 foot dimension is aproximately the same as the wavelength of a 60Hz tone. Any mechanical or electrical hum from equipment or grounding problems will emphasized. And since both length & width are 19 feet, this only exaggerates the situation even more! And you will also have some severe mode problems at certain low frequencies (both excessive bass & cancellations) using those room proportions.

And using ceiling speakers for high fidelity....................

[Champagne taste beer budget]

I was just waiting for you to poo-poo both the room size and choice of speakers, artto. The double 19' thing hit me like a 18" sub when I first saw it, and though the ceiling mounts are the only option for some people, though not what I would consider a first rate way to go. Not that can't sound good, but I wouldn't expect them to have true quality sound.

[slowjoe24]

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On 3/24/2004 2:35:34 PM bbechard wrote:

What made you go with the RF7s? I've been thinking about the RF5s. I like the RF7 better - but speakers are large - not sure how they'd look at home. RF5 seemed to be a good selection considering sound, size and price. But I'm not sold on that choice just yet.

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When the dealer switched from the RF-5's to the RF-7's I could not believe the change. He was playing the same demo clip over and over and I heard so many different things on the RF-7's. The level of detail on certain sounds was increadible! For me it was no choice, the 7's had won the fight. I had to drop buying the Sub for now, because of my budget, however for now the 7's are able to play full range and give me plenty of Bass! I know most folks on here have to have more bass and more will be nice one day, but for me the RF-7's pump out good deep bass I guess LOTR I & II have worked my 7's the best so far and they never missed a beat!

I also choose the RC-7 because it was part of the Reference matching set, however due to the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) I bought the RCR-5's to hide them in the ceiling, but now I couldn't be happier with them. Alot of the good surround sounds are of jets, airplanes, rain or wind, weather, ship or boat noise.....that typically come from above so the RCR-5's mounted in the ceiling gives a great reproduction of these type sounds. However this is My $0.02. Others may disagree with this perspective?

Take your time and don't get in a rush before you buy. Your ears will thank you later! The guy's on this board are good for helpful advice most of the time so stay tuned Good Luck, Joe

[BruinsFan]

ARTTO, while all the info sounds great on this forum - I am under the constraints of the builders floor plans. Not sure i can just move a few load bearing walls because some bass might get cancelled. I have 19x19 great room, a 19x20 bonus room and a 19x17 2nd bonus room. That's what i have to work with. I have a hard time believeing that there is no way to get at least acceptable sound out of this room.

All the other feedback has been helpful - keep it coming.

thanks.

[wrench_peddler]

Artto's feedback was good too but you are simply unable to use it. Get a big subwoofer, plenty of amp for the RF7's and make sure your guest only stand in the good spots and they will be impressed. You can place random lamps, tables and plastic plants in the bad spots to help discourage wandering ears. You should be fine. Lotsa luck. Hey Artto, Keep talking, I'm listening.

[BruinsFan]

well i don't mean to sound ungrateful to Artto but if I told someone i had to drive from point A to point B and asked what the best route was - I don't think the best response is - you really should fly. How does that help?

Plus, I'm a newbie - so if your going to blast a 19" room - then you need to at least give what size room is good. OK so there might be some canceling or whatever at 60hz, but if the room was 22.5 feet wouldn't I loose 50hz, what about 40hz in a 28 feet??? The point is lost without a better explaination and suggestion.

And I know ceiling mounts are a bad - but i have little option - so how about some hints on how to make it work the best. Artto seems like he knows his stuff - it's just his response is completly useless.

[wrench_peddler]

Actually your response was equally useless.(cept to some poor sucker that likes his nose nonsymetrical from sticking it were it doesn't belong) Your more correct/productive response should have been something along these lines. "The room is all I have to work with. Is there anything I can do to help it work?" He would presumably have gone on to explain what and why and how. (OK, I will remove my nose before it gets dislocated.) PS, if it helps. Artto will try to help you get it perfect, while you are shooting for good enough. Somewhere in between is what you will end up with. You are the one that has to be happy with it and Artto probably couldn't care less. You were the one, who after all, started this by asking for advice. Keep what you want and cull the rest. What really sucks though, is when you have to dig around in the trash later to try to find that tidbit you threw away cause you just realized, oops, I needed that.

BTW, there is a formula that gives you the best ratio for the room size. It is something like .4x1x1.58 Hxdxw. Artto knows!

[Champagne taste beer budget]

H=1 W=1.26 D=1.59

8x10x12.7

For a more reasonable size room, use the "half room" concept, which uses an assumed 16' ceiling height, though it is actually 8. It's not ideal, but makes for a bigger space.

16x20x25, but actually use an 8' ceiling.

Check out my thread on HT/Listening room size, I learned the above in there from Mr. artto, and others, and I believe there are a couple other acceptable formulas in that thread.

As far as the 60hz problem, it is just that the 19 foot dimension will accentuate any hum brought into the system from the electrical wiring. That is an awfully low frequency to try and dampen, not that it can't be done, just not as easily as some higher ones. Bear in mind I'm pretty new to this stuff, I invite anyone to please jump in and correct any mistakes I made so that both bbchard and I can learn something.

[BruinsFan]

wrench_peddler: relax. Take a deep breath. I had clearly outlined that the room was what I had to work with and was inviting suggestions to make that room work. Violent comments are completely out of line. This is a discussion forum - try and keep that in mind. I post enough on-line that it gets irratating when people answer the wrong question. If I offended you or artto - I truely apologize. I can't change the room - look at it as a challenge.

Champagne taste beer budget: thanks. I would guess that was were Artto was going to begin with but just didn't complete the next thought. So what are some of the best ways to counteract this problem? Someone mentioned ealier to consider furniture placement etc. I'm guessing a good surge protector to clean the power.

How about speaker size? Placement/orientation? This is where i get into the unknown - A smaller speaker pushed back into the corner and pointed toward the opposite corner - may have the effect of seeming like it was in a larger room?? Or a large speaker that will just envelop the room with sound??

[Champagne taste beer budget]

Sorry, but you'll have to look to someone much smarter than I to answer those questions. I have learned enough in here the last few months to be dangerous, but also know when to keep my mouth shut before I say something totally bass-ackwards. Keep reading the posts in the architectural forum, there are a lot of answers in here to a varity of questions.

[wrench_peddler]

I am as relaxed as can be. The only violence was what would be done to my nose for sticking it in someones way. I typed it wrong or you read it wrong. Btw, your new line of questioning is going to be much more productive. Where is Artto when you need him?

[BruinsFan]

ok to all.

while we wait to see if others have opinions. I mainly want to get the equipment right - don't want to return this a bunch of time to get it right. Moving stuff around is easy enough.

Except for the rears - which I know the ceiling is a sucky place - but I don't see any alternative for this room. I was think of doing a 6.1 setup with 3 rcr3. Providing a larger sound field and more options since i won't be able to move those.

thoughts.

[slowjoe24]

Have you gotten to listen to the RF-7's yet? Are you dead set against buying these big beast? Joe

[BruinsFan]

I've listened to them and they were fantastic. I didn't hear a huge performance difference above my old Energy speakers until the RF7s. (Listened to RF15,RF35,RF7 and RF5) in that order and then some book shelf speakers. I'm not knocking the RF35 or whatever - just felt they were on par with what I had. A bit punchier and better high end - but wasn't "wowed" till I heard the RF7s.

I liked the RF5s as well and just considering the size and potential WAF - I was leaning towards them but haven't ruled anything out yet.

[artto]

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On 3/25/2004 2:11:01 AM bbechard wrote:

well i don't mean to sound ungrateful to Artto but if I told someone i had to drive from point A to point B and asked what the best route was - I don't think the best response is - you really should fly. How does that help?

Plus, I'm a newbie - so if your going to blast a 19" room - then you need to at least give what size room is good. OK so there might be some canceling or whatever at 60hz, but if the room was 22.5 feet wouldn't I loose 50hz, what about 40hz in a 28 feet??? The point is lost without a better explaination and suggestion.

And I know ceiling mounts are a bad - but i have little option - so how about some hints on how to make it work the best. Artto seems like he knows his stuff - it's just his response is completly useless.

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bb....read my thread in this topic area. The room proportions you need to 'shoot for' are 1 : 1.26 : 1.59

Also, your 9' ceiling will contribute to the problems I mentioned above. It's one-half of 18' which = a 62Hz tone, so you're still in the ballpark for the aggrevations mentioned. Having all 3 dimensions the same is the worse possible situation. Applying 'the half-room principal' to the ceiling dimension & you're almost there.

I don't mean to be mean, but if good sound is your objective, then you need to address these issues. There really isn't any way to correct it with acoustical products, or equalizers or whatever when its at this extreme. You're putting yourself at a disadvantage right out of the starting gate. Your problem is that you have the dreaded evil 19 in two dimensions & a partial equivalent of it in the 3rd, vertical dimension. A room mode is coinciding at the same frequency (60Hz)in all 3 dimensions which is bad regardless of the room size (unless its very large, ie: auditorium) because it causes maximum reinforcement of the sound at certain frequencies, in this case 60Hz. And 60Hz is a source of both electrical & mechanical noise in audio systems & is something we all strive to avoid.

[Q-Man]

You said that you are designing for a new home. In that case go back to the drawing board and design the room right, so it will work for you. In my line of work I send people back to the builders to have their plans redrawn everyday. Most of the draftsman and architects these days don't have a clue what their doing. That goes for the builders too. You need to do your homework and guide them along.