Prana-Bindu Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 I am a few months away from this upgrade, but I was hoping y'all would break off some beta on the subject. Curiosity about the match of a relatively high-powered (~40-80 wpc -- I said 'relatively') tube amp and the RF-3's has me in its grip. I'll have the opportunity soon to audition the VTL ST-85, and that's about it for local access. Do any of you have any suggestions about any other such amps? The VTL is within price range (1800), but I'd like to shoot for less. Does anyone have any experience with the Anthem AMP 1? The Rogue 88? I want that kind of power to minimize the loss in the lower frequencies from which these kinds of amps are whispered to suffer. I would use the preout in my Luxman LV-117 (no, it's NOT the hybrid integrated, it's the fully solid state POS), at least for a few months. Thank you for your help dragging another lost soul into velvety tube hell.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 I don't have experience with any of the amps you mention, but I have an Audio Research VT-50. It uses 6550C output tubes and puts out 45 wpc. It sounds wonderful. The bass is not shy and it is very quiet. You would have to look on the used market to get one of these to fit within your price range though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Blorry Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 mdeneen is absolutely correct. I purchased a 35 watt/channel tube amp that was made when Kennedy was president, and it not only sounds better, but it outperforms and is louder than my brand-new Denon 70w/channel amp. This phenomenon may not be as noticeable with low efficiency speakers, but as long as they're mated with Klipsch, the difference should be quite noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 4, 2001 Share Posted July 4, 2001 First, Prana, tube watts are not SS watts. The saying is that tubes watts are twice as powerful as SS watts. Now it turns out that Tubes Do Something Special (Peter van Willenswaard, Stereophile, September 2000, http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?357). They put out a lot more voltage than we are aware of. Willensward measured recorded music on a 9 watt amp with 300B tubes. He found that You'd need a 50W transistor amp to realize the same peaks my 9W 300B launched without wincing at my speakers. Second, I think most full range speakers need a powered sub-woofer for the music range below 40 Hz. I believe that one reason we are seeing a rise in the popularity of tube equipment is three-fold: 1. The recommendations of tweaking audiophiles on the Net are without the practical constraints of retail stores; they can freely give their opinion whether they have product to ship or not 2. The growth of home theaters has made the sub-woofer an accessory, just as accepted in suburban ranch homes as they are in multi-story apartment dwellings 3. The long cycles of deep earth notes, like the low throbbing techno-bop of Sades new Lovers Rock jazz CD, require not just lavish quantities of amplifier power, but also the military discipline of a Sargent-major to control the bass cone excusions and driver impedance swings - this means Class D and H SS amps Even a low cost $250 sub can make a big difference in your system. Especially if it frees up your choice in tube amps. I know that buying my subs before my tube amp allowed me to consider micro-watt 2A3 tubes for their delicate sound and details, otherwise I would have leaned towards EL-84s or 300Bs for their additional power. Power, however is probably not all that you need, if you have super-efficient horns and/or an SS powered sub-woofer. Your horns are not just efficient compared to the average speaker (8590 dB/w/m), they are even more than superefficient (90-95) they are ultra efficient (95-100). This puts them into a different league for normal power requirements in typical settings. Remember an ultra-efficient horn speaker needs just a few micro-watts, most of the time. Even multi-channel Macintosh amp can drive two large electrostatic Martin Logan Prodigys, along with their two ML rear speakers, at conversation levels in a large room, with a sum total of .2 (or less) watts on its blue meter. I do NOT know the VTL equipment personally, except that they are renown for their powerful amps. Whatever you get, however, you need to give them a long listen. Although the minute differences in tube sounds are readily apparent, the significant differences only become apparent as the enjoyment of the sound never diminishes and the sound remains pleasing. I only know of one confirmed horn lover who has gone back to SS amps from bottle power: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/volksamp.htm (The Volksamp Aleph 30 SE Power Amplifier by Dick Olsher). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted July 5, 2001 Author Share Posted July 5, 2001 Thanks for all the help! I had no idea that tube power ratings were so different than solid state. I'll keep you posted on my findings. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Colin, Sounds to me that Mr Olsher was put on this earth to slam bipolar amplifiers. Hey to each his own but love what my bipolar does for me in my listening room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider124 Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 The RF-3's are a very bad match with SET amplifiers (Single ended 2A3, 300B, or even 845) because they have a very nasty impedance dip (to about 4 ohms) in the bass. A Push-Pull amplifier might work better, I'm thinking about a PP KT88 amp with a transformer-coupled SE driver stage. That or just toss the RF-3's and get some real high-efficiency speakers so I can run 300B's. Charlie ------------------ "What's that noise?" "It's the carpet, it kinda mutes the speakers." "No, it sounded more like the chandalier falling." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted July 20, 2001 Author Share Posted July 20, 2001 I auditioned the VTL IT-85 with my RF-3's, and I fell in love. It's not perfect, but the improvement was dramatic. I suspect the majority of the remaining inadequacies are to be found in the remainder of the system (digital system, room and placement issues, and -- dare I say -- speakers?). I do believe the IT-85 is a push-pull amp, Spider. I certainly recommend an audition with your system. ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider124 Posted July 20, 2001 Share Posted July 20, 2001 The VTL IT-85 is a push-pull EL34 amp. Pretty standard design, although I'm sure they use rather high-quality components. If you are looking for something more affordable you might try the AES AE-25 Superamp (Push-pull KT88's with triode mode) at $1200 assembled ($1000 kit), or the regular AE-25 at $800 assembled ($600 kit) (Push-pull EL34's). Charlie ------------------ "What's that noise?" "It's the carpet, it kinda mutes the speakers." "No, it sounded more like the chandalier falling." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 21, 2001 Share Posted July 21, 2001 Charlie, one added note...I had the opportunity to hear the cary amps (AES I meant) you mentioned the other day...the AE-25 superamp is totally different than the AE-25!!! no comparison really, the superamp sounded as good as I have ever heard from a PP design! wow! I am saving up my dollars already...really cool! though at a low, low budget point of mine my dynaco MkIVs will have to do for a while...MTC...warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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