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How much Power is enough?


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As of late, I've been mulling over my next upgrade. Invariably, one falls into the "more is better" mentality and, as such, I'm considering the addition of the ever popular "wattage" to my system.

My current system consists of a Denon 2801 (90wx5) with Heresy II's. At the moment, I've been thinking about the possibility of integrating a pair (or 3) of monoblock amps (Marantz ma700, possibly) to the front soundstage and letting the denon devote itself to the surrounds.

My question revolves around adding more power to high efficiency speakers. I can certainly see how adding amps to a pair of 86db speakers would yield a great benefit, but, would one expect the same level of improvement with high efficiency units? At reference levels, is 200watts of power going to increase clarity/imaging/whatever significantly over 90 watts? I'm not trying to get louder. What I have is sufficiently so. I'm just looking to improve the quality of sound at the same levels that I'm listening to, now. Is there a point where adding more power no longer buys you anything with a high efficiency design, like Klipsch?

------------------

--Elliott--

Heresy Mains (Birch)

Heresy Surrounds (Walnut)

RC-3 Center

(Because a C7 won't fit!)

SVS 20-39cs/Samson S700

Denon 2801

JVC D-Series

Pioneer DV-525

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jelliott100, Wonder how much power your Denon is actually delivering? I personally think more is better.

If your 2801 has preouts and you are happy with it,why

not buy(or borrow)an amp or two and go that route? Check e-bay for an Acurus 100X3,or even better,a 200X3.

Keith

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Guest BobG

Focus on Quality of amp not Quantity of power. With ANY rated efficiency, the difference between 90 watts and 200 is not much more than 3 dB; an unimpressive increase for sure. The Quality of amps differs greatly and power rating has little to do with it. You may well find a 50 watt amp that both sounds better and plays louder. Obviously, the specs fail to tell the complete story. Get thee to a high end dealer (if you can find one) and have them suggest some amps to audition (at home on your Heresys). Beware as they will almost certainly try to talk you into expensive speakers too. Let us know what you hear.

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Jelliott,

What BobG says is right. With high efficiency speakers, more is not necessarily better. But, to clarify what better is, if you are concerned with playing music loud (you said you weren't), then more power is better to reduce amp the chance of amp clipping and damaging your speakers.

However, if better sound is what you're after, then more is not necessarily better. Instead of more watts, you want "better" watts in the power range that you typically drive your speakers through. That is, if you typically listen to your speakers with the amp driving them no more than ten watts (which is still pretty loud with Heresy's), then you want to focus on finding an amp that will put out good sound between 0-10 watts.

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Had KG5.5's with SonyES receiver rated at 100 watts per channel.Bought Acurus 100X3 and used on preouts on three front channels.Very slight audible increase in SPL(never measured with meter).Very large audible difference in dynamics.Tighter bass,clarity in highs that are hard to describe,and a feeling of air(or space

or ?openness?does that make sense?)not noticed before.

Use it for what its worth.

Keith

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Makes perfect sense. Quality watts over sheer quantity. But how do I determine how many "Quality" watts I need. Is there some way I can determine how much power I'm using at a given volume level?

For movies, I'm generally at -5db from reference and with music usually at -10 to -15 on the receivers display. I have no idea how to correlate this to power usage, though.

I suppose I just need to plug some different things in and see how it sounds.

cwm1.gif

------------------

--Elliott--

Heresy Mains (Birch)

Heresy Surrounds (Walnut)

RC-3 Center

(Because a C7 won't fit!)

SVS 20-39cs/Samson S700

Denon 2801

JVC D-Series

Pioneer DV-525

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If this helps you ... on a pair of big old Klipsch Cornwall horns, with a 100 decibel/watt/meter sensitivity, in a 17 by 27 carpeted living room with cathedral ceilings at normal listening levels, the 9:00 position on the pre-amp dial measures about 67 dB at the arm of my listening chair (11 feet away from front of horns) with a 1 KHz tone.

Average music, on the slow setting, is a few decibels above that. On my B type (B? or is it A?) pre-amp dial, 8:00 approximates ¼ of my amplifier output. At 9:00 on the dial my 3.5 watt amps push out coffeehouse SPLs; levels slightly above normal conversation.

Fast music peaks at that level are 10 to 15 dBs higher. 9 o'clock on the dial is about 70s dB area, 10 o'clock is loud: about 80s, with the fast peaks no longer measuring quite as wide, therefore high noon on the dial averages about 100 dB at three meters away and consumes an average of perhaps 1.75 watts, with peaks only 10dB above that.

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I agree with Keith's last post completely.

Here is what I'm doing;Denon 3801 with 2 Denon POA-2800 amps and Klipschorns yet.

The 2800's are rated at 200X2 @ 8ohms.I have the Horns bi-wired and use the A speaker out to the Highs and mids,with the B's going to the bass end.That comes to about 300 watts on demand to the top end and 300 or so to the bottom end.Over KIll?You bet!!

The Horns rarly get more than a watt,but the dynamics were so much better over the 3801 and it's only used to drive the 4 KSP-S6's.

I use the other POA-2800 to drive my modified Heresy that's bi-wired too.One channel feeds the upper end and the other feeds the woofer.

The improvement(to me&my wife)from just adding the first amp caused me to find the secound.The poor Heresy was begging for it.

By modified Heresy I mean this;It has a K-Horn AA network and K-Horn squawker.

It's as close to having seperates as I'm going to get till Denon gets around to a new Pre-amp.

cwm35.gifcwm35.gif

------------------

Main HT:'77 Klipschorns w/ALKs,'75 Heresy center,modified with,K-Horn sqauwker & AA network.

KSP-S6 at sides 2 KSP-S6's rear.

Denon AVR-3801

2 Denon POA-2800 200X2

1 driving the Horns

1 driving the bi-wired Heresy center.

2 DIY 12"4ohm subs,Carver A500x 400 watts per ch.feed.

1 12" powered sub(behind the couch)feed from the surrounds pre-outs.

Sony DVP-C650D.

Dishnetwork Echostar 4700 w/DD

JVC S7600U S-VHS

Pioneer CDL-D501 laser

Music in "Direct"only!

DH Labs T-14 speaker wire to the front 3.

Room size;15.5 X 25' opening into dining room.

Old RCA 52"RPTV w/matching cabinets

Bed room HT:

KSB 2.1 mains,SC-1,SS-1's,2 SW 8 II subs.

2 Heresy's for music.

Denon AVR-2800,Dishnetwork,Sony SLV-975HF VCR,Panasonic DVD-RV31.27"RCA

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quote:

Originally posted by BobG:

Focus on Quality of amp not Quantity of power. With ANY rated efficiency, the difference between 90 watts and 200 is not much more than 3 dB; an unimpressive increase for sure. The Quality of amps differs greatly and power rating has little to do with it. You may well find a 50 watt amp that both sounds better and plays louder. Obviously, the specs fail to tell the complete story. Get thee to a high end dealer (if you can find one) and have them suggest some amps to audition (at home on your Heresys). Beware as they will almost certainly try to talk you into expensive speakers too. Let us know what you hear.

ROBERTPINSON@prodigy.net"]name@domain.comROBERTPINSON@prodigy.net

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So, if I have a Sony ES 5.1 DD/DTS receiver, I could run my front rt and front lt preouts to a 2 channel amp, and connect up my front rt and front lt speakers to this amp, while at the same time running my center, rear rt, rear lt, and sub directly from my receiver as I do now? The idea being that I could improve the quality of my classical music listening, which is obviously most important via the front speakers, even though the musical digital modes do play ambient effects via the cntr and rears....And, when I listen to broadcast tv, this hybrid setup would still blend ok with the above setup?? thanks...

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paulaelliott,

Yes, you can do what you said and it will be an improvement. However, during 2-channel listening, you will still be using the "preamp section" of your Sony receiver. For me, two-channel audio is my primary concern, and I will make sacrifices on the HT side. What I plan on doing is using a high quality preamp/poweramp setup for my two-channel audio. For HT, I will probably end up using an HT receiver with Front L&R preouts and connect those to one of my inputs on the preamp. I will have to adjust the volume on the preamp to the proper level for HT use, which isn't ideal, but at least my 2-channel audio will not be compromised. Of course all of my 2-channel audio components will be connected directly to the preamp, and not going through the HT receiver. The video sources will be the only devices connected to the HT receiver. This setup will provide me with no comppromises on my 2-channel system, and still allow me to use an HT system.

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paulaelliot,that's exactly right.Probably better to get a three channel amp and run front three with it. Simply run low level signal from receiver pre outs to amp inputs and speaker wire amp to front three speakers.

Keith

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Ok, I think I'm getting it...Question: On a HT receiver, is it on the Amp or the Preamp side where true hifi musicality suffers the most?

Assuming its on the amp side, and I do what is suggested above, ie, buying either a 2 or 3 channel amp, and running the front stage from the receiver preouts to the amp, can anybody suggest a good amp in the moderate price range, which would improve my classical music listening, over what I now have with my Sony STR-V333ES receiver?

Also, it was suggested I get a 3 channel rather than 2 channel amp and run the entire front stage off the amp...Since the center has no impact in true hifi musiclistening, is it so that when playing HT, the center channel isnt sonically different from the fronts?

Thanks.cwm5.gif

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You definitely want your front three speakers to match sonically, and you definitely want them to be powered very similarly in HT. The center is the most important speaker in HT, so you don't want to skimp on wattage there. On another note, I recently upgraded from a denon 3300 receiver (105W per channel) to a parasound separates, and the volume difference was extreme. Most receivers are not conservatively rated. Generally speaking, 100 watts of receiver power is not at all equal to 100 watts of $2k amplifier power. Also, when you are powering multiple speakers in HT with a receiver, the amp in the receiver the amp in the receiver will not put out its stated wattage (again, generally). In my case, I've read the Denon put out around 60-70w per channel, even though it's rated at 105. You can, however, get away with powering the surrounds with the reciever. The bottom line is that your mileage will vary, but my guess is you would be happier sprining for the extra channel in the amp.

I tried using my denon as a pre-amp with my parasound amp while waiting for my separate controller, and it worked really well. Separates usually generate less noise (in theory anyway). But I can't say that I noticed much of a difference. Buy the amp first, and demo a separated controller and compare the two IN YOUR LISTENING ENVIRONMENT, NOT AT THE STORE.

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RF-3 Mains

RC-3 Center

RS-3 Surrounds (movies)

RB-5 Surrounds (music)

KSW-12 Sub

Parasound AVC-1800

Parasound HCA-1205A

Pioneer Elite DV-05

Denon CDR-1800

Parasound S/PS-140

Hitachi 43FDX01B

DVDO IScan Pro

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Well,

After getting the cold shoulder from the local dealers in terms of in-home auditions I decided I would poke around online and see what was available (and returnable).

After considering a couple of different amps (odessey and monarch) I went a little out of my mind and bid on an Acurus 100x3 on ebay. Lo and behold I won with what I thought was a low-ball bid.

It arrived today and I hooked up the L and R mains with some cheapo monster cable I had lying around while I wait for my BetterCables to arrive. First impression is very favorable. Instantly noticed more detail and better definition. A few weeks ago I posted about how my soundstage seemed to collapse into a messy heap when loud passages played. This has been greatly improved with the addition of the Acurus amp. I can still hear individual instruments very clearly even when things get loud and complex. Terrific!

As far as the sound itself. I think one of the proverbial "veils" has been lifted. Vocals sound more "there" in the room with me. Piano sounds much more real. All in all, I'm very satisfied with this purchase. I have not tried any home theater listening as of yet. Once my new cables arrive I'll hook everything up and re-calibrate. Can't wait to hear it!

Thanks to all for the advice in this matter. I'm sure I'll be looking to upgrade again in the near future but, for now I'm quite happy.

------------------

--Elliott--

Heresy Mains (Birch)

Heresy Surrounds (Walnut)

RC-3 Center

(Because a C7 won't fit!)

SVS 20-39cs/Samson S700

Denon 2801

Acurus 100x3

JVC D-Series

Pioneer DV-525

This message has been edited by jelliott100 on 07-18-2001 at 08:22 PM

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The Marantz MA700 is a GREAT choice for mono amp(and if it matters thx certified, no good for my Heritage speakers, but the power is there). I am using 2 for my front Khorns and 1 for a C7 centre speaker.

My HT still under construction Smash.gif

Oiled Oak Khorns(f)

La Scala's(rs)

Oiled Oak Hersey II's(s)(soon I hope)

2-KLFC7's (c, rc)

Subwoofers Xmas 01(RSW15, KEF-TDM46, dual SVS 20-39PC)

Adcom ACE 515 Enhancer(conditioner\surge protect)

Marantz SR18EX A\V Receiver

3-Marantz MA700 mono block amps (Khorns, rc C7)

Marantz VM5100 S-VHS hifi

Marantz DV7100 Progressive Scan DVD(upgraded from 3100)

Marantz CD4050 dual casette

Marantz DR4160 3 disk carousel with single tray CDR

Toshiba 50HX70 HDTV(may exchange for TW50H80 due fall)

DVDO Iscan V2 (line doubler)

All Monster speaker\video\digital cables

Bell ExpressVU model 6000 HDTV Receiver and Sat dish

The "Crown Jewel" for my Marantz system, I happened to obtain at a Garage Sale over the weekend, in MINT condition(manuals and schematics as well)the 1976 Marantz 6200 turntable Smile.gif What some people with store and forget in an attic for 24 years..you say you want $20..OK Biggrin.gif To think I gave my LP's away in 94...UGH.

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jelliott,glad to hear you are happy with your purchase.

I know your description well.While the Acurus amps may not be in the truly high end price category,they are a good value and good amps(IMO).I've always wondered how an Acurus 200X5 would drive two pair of KLF30's and a C-7 for HT use.I've wondered other things too,but I'd better not get into that.Good luck to you and hope you enjoy your equipment anew.

Keith

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