popbumper Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 All: HOPE this is the right forum - after all, it concerns my HT setup. At any rate, I have been doing some good research on subs, and have "cornered" at least two possibilities - Sunfire or SVS. My query comes from a recent visit with a friend who is in the COMMERCIAL audio business. He can basically get things at "below cost", since he is a rep (and runs his own company). He suggested I get an Electrovoice unpowered ported sub with an 18" driver - mind you, this is a THX certified box that would actually be installed IN movie theaters - and couple it with a 100 watt amplifier. This combo would cost me FAR less than a "consumer equivalent", and an 18" driver is more efficient than say, a 10" or 12", even at lower power (IF I am "thinking wrong" here, correct me....) Is there ANY reason why I should NOT consider doing such a thing? Is there really anything more than "bells and whistles" that sets consumer audio apart from commercial audio? My thinking is, "hey, if this thing is used in an actual theater, then WHY NOT".... We all go to LIVE concerts and movie theaters and hear GOOD commercial speakers, true? Comments and/or concerns, please. This is really a "new avenue" I am investigating and wonder if anyone else has mixed/matched or considered the same, or avoided it altogether... Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 I'm by no means a sub expert, but from my understanding, 100 watts is probably not going to get you where you want to be, sound wise. I'm sure others will be chiming in with other, more informed opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Most commercial subs do not go low enough. Get specs. Most Commercial stuff has higher noise and distortion. Let us know what stuff you are getting and we can help more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 i agree... get the specs on the electrovoice sub... or at least a model number.... as for being more efficient.... sometimes yes...sometimes no..... either way i would recommend an amp with more power for the extreme demands that an LFE channel can require..... commercial/professional equipment can be very good.... i personally use pro amps for my home theater.... awesome sound.... one final thought..... the new sunfires do include an automatic/manual equalization system that can solve many room problems.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted April 15, 2004 Author Share Posted April 15, 2004 Fair enough guys, here are the specs on the EV sub: Model: TL440M Freq: 27-80Hz Sensitivity: 1w/1m (Full/half space) 96/102dB Max SPL: ave./peak 127/133dB Continuous power handling: 350W Peak power handling: 1400W Impedance: 8 ohms Speaker: 1 x EVS - 18S Hopefully someone can shed some more light. Specs are exactly as written in the catalog. I also realized this speaker is NOT "THX" approved, it's brother (TL440) is. Thanks! Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 ---------------- On 4/15/2004 9:13:50 PM popbumper wrote: Fair enough guys, here are the specs on the EV sub: Model: TL440M Freq: 27-80Hz Sensitivity: 1w/1m (Full/half space) 96/102dB Max SPL: ave./peak 127/133dB Continuous power handling: 350W Peak power handling: 1400W Impedance: 8 ohms Speaker: 1 x EVS - 18S Hopefully someone can shed some more light. Specs are exactly as written in the catalog. I also realized this speaker is NOT "THX" approved, it's brother (TL440) is. Thanks! Popbumper ---------------- sounds like a pretty good sub..... but the consumer models that you are looking at will go lower and offer more features..... if you go with this sub...definitely get an amp with more power.... at least 250 watts or more.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Go with whatever consumer model you are considering. These pro/commercial things are hard to tame. I think that Audio Nectar has a pair of the JBL Pro cabs and has done extensive research and tweaking with some EQ device and is finally happy, but it does take work. Sure those specs look tempting, but it does take tweakin. Forget the commercial stuff unless you are a serious tweaker or have wild backyard parties. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I'm with Russ here -- 100 watts ain't going to get it. You could run it with the new 1000 watt Bash plate amp from Parts Express -- and I think that would rock pretty good. An 18" driver in a large ported enclosure would have pretty low distortion levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 popbumper: The gang here has given you good advice. I did commercial sound reinforcement for bands at the club and concert-level years ago, and I have used a lot of my commercial gear in my home from time-to-time. Everything from Crown, Shure and BGW power amps to Electrovice, JBL, Cerwin Vega and Northeast Acoustics Works speakers, and I can tell you that the commercial stuff, although "bullet-proof" and made to play loud-and-proud in large venues for hours on end without a hitch, just doesn't measure up to consumer gear when it comes to using it in a residential environment. The stuff is just, plain "rude" sounding, in my opinion! I realize there are exceptions to this. I hope this helps. -Picky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 That sub does not go low enough for HT. Go for a good cunsomer model. Check out SVS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I will take the slighly different position here - Commercial stuff is generally built for a bit longer throw than what you would use in your home. That simply means that they are more rugged and built to handle the higher wattage dished out and enclosed or lensed appropriately. It does not mean commercial stuff is not good for the home, however, you quite often need to modify to get reasonable solutions (especially in the crossover and horn lens arena). Also, quite a few commercial units (for reasons beyond my understanding) don't seem as dynamic at lower power. From all I have seen I do agree on the consumer solution for subs - the price/performance ratio is excellent on good quality consumer sub woofers. As in all things there are good, bad and exceptions (for instance - LaScala is an excellent home and small venue commercial speaker without any modification). I find some of the JBL pro stuff much to my liking and I am in the process of building speakers with pro components. The difference is the intent - I will be building Xovers to match my boxes and venue. I am sure (after many hours of frustration) that the end result will be very good.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I tend to agree with hwatkins that commercial gear is made to have a longer throw. e.i.: to PROJECT further into a large room that is much larger than the average home's family room or basement. In doing this, there tends to be a sacrifice in near-field quality and performance. One other point I'd like to make: A good portion of the cost of commercial (road) gear is in the expense of building extra integrity into the cabinets for the purpose of allowing the gear to withstanding the torturous life that gear is typically subjected to while it is on the road. The road can be BRUTAL on gear. Usually, all of this reinforcement does nothing to improve the sound. In fact, it sometimes results in a compromise in sound quality. -Picky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I agree with hwatkins too. And I disagree with others saying that 100W wouldn't be enough, but I will say it depends on the amp you use. I myself am only using 120Wrms total to power a single 12" woofer in a custom large (4 cubic feet) sealed enclosure, and it does just fine. That 18" driver (in that large vented enclosure) should be even more effecient so just get a good quality amp with a lot of dynamic headroom. I have an older Sonance Sonamp 260 running a dual 8ohm voicecoil subwoofer so it's only rated output 60Wrms per channel, but the amp is very well built (and incorprates a large toroidal transformer) and supplies clean power (and isn't over-rated) with a lot of headroom. Keep in mind that many of the bolted-in-the-box amps aren't so clean and don't have a lot of headroom. I also think one should taking frequency response rating with a grain of salt -- especially rating on consumer gear. I saw a review of a Sunfire subwoofer that the manufacturer rated response from 22-180Hz, but the test revealed the subwoofer was already down over -12dB down at 25Hz! I don't think that 18" sub in a large ported enclosure will have any problem playing low -- abosolute worst case you might need to replace the ports with ones slightly longer to lower the venting frequency (and that something I can help you determine too). I think the biggest negatives with commercial gear are size and cost (since it's usually priced fairly high). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 ---------------- On 4/15/2004 9:13:50 PM popbumper wrote: Fair enough guys, here are the specs on the EV sub: Model: TL440M Freq: 27-80Hz Sensitivity: 1w/1m (Full/half space) 96/102dB Max SPL: ave./peak 127/133dB Continuous power handling: 350W Peak power handling: 1400W Impedance: 8 ohms Speaker: 1 x EVS - 18S Hopefully someone can shed some more light. Specs are exactly as written in the catalog. I also realized this speaker is NOT "THX" approved, it's brother (TL440) is. Thanks! Popbumper ---------------- do you have the +/- ratings on that freq. response? most commercial audio rates the lowest frequency at the -10db mark...that's because with a larger amp and EQ (like around 2000watts) in this case, you'd be able to "tweak it out." another thing, commercial subs are focused much more narrowly than consumer stuff. granted, it's very low frequencies involved here, but you're only going to get a "smooth" response in the coverage angles and then off to the sides it gets very peaky (which just overall sounds bad). i say "smooth" response because commercial audio generally has a very rough frequency response curve. some things may be rated at +/- 3db but i can guarantee that at least 95% of the market has response curves with no straight lines. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (kinda like that the whole way down). in the commercial world though, this isn't a problem because the coverage is large and because of the way acoustics work, you'll never get a flat freq. response in a commerical setting. (granted, flat is the goal but it is in all practicality unattainable). ok, so that's all the negatives i can think of, so i'll bring out some positives now... the sensitivity is rated at 96db in full space and 102db in half space...if you place the sub in the corner of your room, you'd be putting it into 1/8th space which puts the sensitivity up to around 108db (i think, someone correct me if im wrong). 100 watts would bring that baby well over 120db. but for headroom purposes, i'd suggest a 200 or 300 watt amp so that you're riding in the middle of the amp instead of the top end (which generally sounds better). also, what kind of mains are you using? and what are the dimensions of your room? i went to the ev site and checked out the specs and all that and 27 is the -10db point...32Hz is the -3db point. if you were to throw in an equalizer and boost 27Hz +10db and then got yourself a good 600 or 1000 watt amp, then you'd prob get some good bass happening. the goal here though is to get down to 20Hz, but 27 is pretty close. also, because your room is going to be small and if you corner load, you might not even need the EQ. so, all that to say...for the price you're getting this at, i would totally go for it. however, i do want to point out that commercial subs sound way different than consumer subs. i personally prefer the commercial sound (it's much drier, no boom, but often lacks in mega low freq. response). I'm surprised to see a pro sub that advertises capability into the twenties...i'd sure love to hear one. side note: i also wanted to point out the insane high freq. response the EV subs have...grab a good horn tweeter that extends down to around 800Hz-1kHz and you can get a very sensitive speaker that goes from around 30Hz to 20kHz no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 Hi everyone: I appreciate the feedback, especially since both "pros" and "cons" have been voiced equally. I'm really still on the fence with this, though leaning more towards consumer, given the comments. Good part is, the dealer I know can order the stuff and has 90 days to return it if it does not work out. My concern here is of course that, never having had a sub, I will "accept" what it does as "typical", and want to keep it. Can you see the dilemma? I am VERY comforted by reviews of well known equipment, especially out on the web where real people have put speakers to real use. Of course, I also am LESS concerned about the commercial sub because, knowing it is not a full range speaker, and not using it as the "focal point" of my setup, any weaknesses will be "less noticeable", because a sub does, well, what a sub does! Stay tuned, folks. I will follow this up as soon as I make a decision. Thanks again for the excellent feedback!! Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 Dr Who: For your further consideration, my room is 20' x 21', though I am really only using half of this space (mains and TV on the long wall), so 10' x 20'. I guess this is an unusual setup by most standards, but I only have so much space (no basement) and the other half of the room is pinball games. Also, my mains are Klipsch Forte's, my receiver is an HK AVR430 (65W/ch). Thanks! Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Hey Pop, good thinking in terms of efficiency and cost/thump ratio, but DrWho and the others have given you very sage advice. The problem with PA/pro gear is not only the very low end, but roughness of frequency response (the +/- portion of the response curve), and the fact that since they are SOOOO efficient, they will tend to operate in your HT at the lowest wattages of your pro amp, which is not necessarily the cleanest part of it's operational spectrum. The EV cabinet will probably need 250-500 watts (at 96db w/ 1 watt, it will play at 117 when your puny 100 watt amp is taxed out- probably fairly distorted), you will also more than likely need 1/3 band or parametric EQ to tame the response (see JBL 4638 discussion this forum), take up LOTS of space (the wife acceptance factor comes into play here) Do the right thing- pick up a Klipsch 12" sub as a starting point, play with positioning and kick back and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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