Does anyone use a SUB w/Klipschorns

[sunnysal]

thanks wolfram I will check it out. btw did you get the U52 I asked kelly to send you? let me know, tony

[dubai2000]

Tony, you got PM.

Wolfram

[Colin]

I think my classic Klipsch corner Khorns are properly fitted to the corners as their low bass is lean, even, balanced and deep. I often leave the ill-fated precursor to Klipschs modern set of reference subs, the LF10, with its single active 10 driver, two passive ones and a 500-watt BASH amplifier, off when using the big ole horns. But I am a subwoofer man. My KSW200 does NOT contribute much to the depth of the horns, only gets in the way of the mid-bass (it peaks about 60Hz). The solid-state supported LF10 however helps with punch, especially with movies. As deep as the Khorns reach, their bass is a flat, but NOT powerful with tube amps.

When I check the frequency response however, the sub is usually too powerful and needs to be turned down to ¼ in order to keep the frequency response near the flat ideal. We dont all like the flat ideal frequency response though, many of us prefer the outrageous bass punch.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I looked again and it was at + - 45 htz...

And actually, if your looking for a seamless Sub set at where the K horns go to... (33 Htz) Maybe just above that is ideal...40?? (Like a cross over?) This way it carries from the K horn into the sub un noticable.

The other factor (and so far a great thread too...) is that depending on music type or movie type.. (talking Klipsch top of the line RSW 15 here with properly set up K horns) The "turned up" factor may also come in. Somewhere between 11- 1 on the dial thinking like a clock seems to be great for me. You want it to add to the sound, not BE the sound.... boom boom boom.

Since were in 2 channel, a sub with properly set up k horns in a medium to large sized room is not a must have item. At least not as much as in Home Theater for sure. But it will bring back to life some things missing on an older CD for sure.

Again, what were talking about, or trying to find, is a realistic "thump" factor IMO for movies, and a solid bottom end in 2 channel..

[chuckears]

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On 4/16/2004 8:31:32 AM Klewless wrote:

My take? There sometimes is music below 40 Hz.

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You're damn right; but it's not only the notes coming from the instruments that get down below 40 Hz... it's the room resonances, subharmonics, whatever you want to call it, that make the music come alive.

A speaker of the K-Horn's quality can bring the performance into your listening room... it takes a subwoofer capable of getting down to the real depths (20 Hz or even lower) that bring

you

to the room in which the recording was made. Every recording venue has different sonic characteristics, including sub-sonic, and the reproduction of the lower tones helps to transport you into whatever room the (quality) recording was made.

This is the essence of the quest of the audiophile; not only reproduction of a performance, but also taking

you

to

the music.

I should think that a big fat SVS PB2+ or PB4 should do the trick nicely

[Q-Man]

hoggy,

I have been using the Sunfire Signature for about five years now. I've been happy with this sub. It digs deep enought and I would say that it is better low then high. It does a better job below 60hz then it does above that. I have a rather large room with a lot of Klipschorns and this poor sub is asked to keep up with them. For the most part it does ok. When I get the volume up there I believe that I am pushing this sub to it's limits.

Read the review on the SVS site. The Signature, Velodyne HGS-18, and an SVS sub were used with and evaluated with a pair of Klipschorns.

One of these days I think I'm going to try the new SVS PB2 Ultra. I think that is what it is called.

[Audible Nectar]

"Since were in 2 channel, a sub with properly set up k horns in a medium to large sized room is not a must have item. At least not as much as in Home Theater for sure. But it will bring back to life some things missing on an older CD for sure."

That largely is the basis for my opinion, as I see this thread has diverged into the HT realm a bit. For most, a properly installed pair of Klipschorns would be sufficient on thier own. For HT, I absolutely recommend a subwoofer - but it better be a good one

I have pondered the use of a subwoofer for the Belles, and I have similar comments/thoughts on this as I do the Klipschorn:

That sub had better be a good one. Keeping up with the speed and efficiency of the Klipschorns/Belles is no easy task, and doesn't come cheap (I found this to be an issue in the Cornwall HT as well). I can envision a difficult selection process....and a very expensive equipment bill.....for the Klipschorn owner, a great deal of expense for that last 15 or so hz.

This is why I want Klipsch to build

THE HERITAGE SUBWOOFER

But much like Alice's Restaurant, you can get anything you want here. There's nothing wrong with individual taste. If you want extra bass with your musical meal, order it

[DTLongo]

I had a Velodyne S1500R sub before I acquired my 2003 Klipschorns, and have tried experimented running the Khorns with SS equipment and my newly acquired Joilida 102B tube amp both without and with the sub.

My considered view is that it's dealer's choice. Set flat, without the sub the Khorns sound sweet but thin, to my ear. With some bass boost with either an outboard equalizer or a preamp, they really bloom and for all practical purposes have more than sufficient bass for all types of music, especially rock and pop, except for extreme-deep-bass symphonic and organ. (Rock/pop doesn't get significantly below 40hz anyway.)

Set flat but with the sub switched in, rock/pop sounds as good or better than through the Khorns alone, though slightly fuller and less "taut." And deep-low symphonic material is definitely enhanced, as is a sense of the surrounding hall and space.

Since the Khorns are so efficient, the sub's volume control has to be turned up only slightly for the sub to add its effect. More, and the sub muddies the overall sound with too much bass. I run the Velo with its volume control set to about the 9:30 position and the crossover at 50 hz.

As a practical matter, since I'm a lazy cuss my default choice has become to run the Khorns normally with the sub, and to turn the sub off only for the occasional very loud, very demanding recording. For example, I'm a little chary at using the sub at high volume with the Telarc "1812" cannons. The Klipschorns with their natural rolloff below 35 hz, can handle that, but I'm not sure the sub would. And I wouldn't want to tisk that expensive Velo by trying.

Tom Longo

[soundog]

I have LH-10s crossing over at 4o Hz with my Khorns as well as seperate subs for the .1 channel on DVDs. I rarely use the subs when listening to two channel music on the Khorns. The clarity of the bass due to a "hair trigger" fast attach and decay create an incrediable realism that may not always be forceful but to me it's subtle perfection.

However, for explosions and car crashes who needs subtle fidelity? I wouldn't know a real car crash or explosion from a slightly distorted one. The umph and volume are what make sound effects that can be felt seem real in my opinion.

[atl#62]

Yes I use a sub with my khorns with GREAT results. I use a REL stentor sub that feeds from speaker leads (not the LFE from the preamp) It is set to come in at 50 hz and handle everything down from there. AWESOME

[tubelover]

A good sub is a fine compliment to a pair of klipschorns

[Dylanl]

Thanks all. When I get my amp back I am going to give it a try.

[hoggy]

I have been considering a sub for my Khorns. I'd want to use it just to fill in the bottom end a bit. I get really good bass now but when it gets down to the 40hz and below it seems it needs to be 3+db louder. How does one go about hooking a sub up to 2 channel? I am not interested in this for HT as I don't care about being blown away (so to speak) while watching movies. I'm always told that bass is none directional but some of my LP's will have the bass to one side or the other (such as a bass guitar, just an example). How would 1 sub fill in there? Would 2 smaller subs (one in front of each Khorn running the perspective side (1 left 1 right) be better than 1? I'd hate to buy a 100-200 lbs sub only to find I'd have to pack it up and ship it back. As you can see from my signature I have only 2 channel gear. I do NOT want boom boom boom!!!! Thank for any info guys. It's much appriciated.

hoggy

[Q-Man]

hoggy,

I don't have any time right now, so I'll have to get back to you.

The boom, boom, boom you talk about is what you hear from a cheap sub. That is what most people think makes a good sounding subwoofer, bacause they hear that. You won't even know that your subwoofer is on untill you turn it off and then hear what your missing once it is set up right.

[hoggy]

Q-man,

Looking forward to your well informed reply when you have the time. What you said ("You won't even know that your subwoofer is on untill you turn it off and then hear what your missing once it is set up right.") Is exactly what I'm looking for.

Thx,

hoggy

[HornEd]

Hoggy, sounds under about 85 Hz ARE non-directional. Directionality is determined by the ear by the comparison of an initial sound with the reflection of the same sound an instant later. A longer bass wave cannot clear the ear in time for its reflected version to be compared... hence a loss of directionality. Bi-pole speakers lose directionality and create a feeling of being overwhelmed by sound because they do not allow the original sound to strike the ear directly.

But fear not for the bass tones of an orchestra. Nearly every low bass sound has an associated sound higher than 85 Hz. Your ear will determine the direction of the part of the sound that is over 85 Hz and associate the long low wave from the subwoofer with it. The effect is that you will hear both the associated and the low sound as if it were one sound coming from the speaker putting out the associated tone.

It's amazing... and the illusion works flawlessly on 5.1 (or more) systems even if the subwoofer is in front and the associated sound is in the rear... the whole sound will appear to come from the rear! -HornEd

PS: My hero, Q-man, was giving his reply while I was writing mine... and, as usual, I agree with the Q-man... and more! A quality sub will provide the low bass sounds without leaking sounds over 85 Hz... for such a leak would create the wrong illusion of directionality. One area of concern beyond the cheap subwoofer issue is that axial (standing) waves, etc. can cause nulls and booms in a good sub due to acoustic aberrations.

[hoggy]

Thanks HornEd, Never knew how that worked but always wondered. Time to get ready for work.

hoggy

[dubai2000]

Hoggy,

I am not familiar with your preamp, but my C29 (long sold) had two sets of main outputs, so connecting the sub to those would have been no problem. If you only have one set of main outputs, you can either use a Y-adaptor running one set of cables to your main amp, the other to the sub (low level inputs), or you could also connect your sub (high level inputs) to the speaker terminals of your power amp (i.e. parallel with your power amp-speaker cables). My previous REL sub offered only this latter choice, with the SVS I am now using the centre output of the MX110.

As for one sub or two, I am using only one (no more space ) and I can only repeat what has been said before: properly calibrated the sub just adds those bass tones the Khorns cannot reproduce on their own. If the bass tones are restricted to one channel, you'll think the appropriate Khorn produces those sounds, no matter where the sub is placed. It's just important to get a good quality sub. I liked my old REL (and they certainly have 'a name'), but for less money the SVS simply blew it away (deeper and cleaner). I have also listened to a LaScala/Sunfire Signature combo....good as well, but it didn't make me regret my purchase...and if space is an issue, SVS is going to introduce some 'micro-subs' later this year.

Wolfram

[Colin]

Rock/population music certainly does get below 40Hz, unless there is no kick drum, bass guitar or piano! I think 40Hz is the low string on the bass guitar, which means there certainly are harmonics lower than the initial 40Hz note. The kick drum makes a 30Hz note and can reach momentary peaks of 120dB! That alone should indicate the deep for very big, very deep and very powerful sub-woofers to sufficiently replicate the music. Since the classic Klipsch corner Khorns delve as deep as 30Hz in a reasonably flat frequency response, their response is well above average for most music. Since the big ole horns do go deep enough to represent most music, matching a subwoofer is indeed tricky. The boom, boom, boom is indeed the overwhelming presence of too much mid-bass (60 to 120Hz), typical of low to moderate (to $500) mid-bass woofers. This is fine for bookshelf loudspeakers, which rarely have significant output below 50Hz, but it is the wrong match for big ole horns that go deeper than that.

So the average mid-bass boomer will NOT do. The unit has to be better. Though the powerful RSW series has the punch to match the Khorn output, even they do NOT go low enough to fit into the Khorns deep bass response. That is why SVS tubes are better. They have the deep bass output below 40Hz - required to properly match Khorns. Yes, I wish Klipsch made a Heritage sub to go with their mighty horns.

One of the biggest myths in audio is that low bass is non-directional. This true only of one frequency at a time. Below 40Hz, listeners cant identify the source of a single low note: the wave of the note is so large that it fills the room and the listener cant tell where it comes from. So much for theory.

The reality is that every single musical note is made of a complex of waveforms with multiple harmonics. A single pluck of a bass guitar or the striking of a far left-hand piano key makes a note with an initial 40Hz frequency sure, but the rest of the unique musical signature of that note includes harmonics that ascend and descend, in both directions, both higher and lower than the initial harmonic. The harmonics for a bass note extend all the way to the mid range. In fact, the creator of the ultimate Nearfield Pipedream line driver arrays told me that one of the best ways to improve the bass was to improve the high end. His system came with two oil-drum size deep bass woofers. Very often, he said, after you add woofers, you improve the tweeters to sharpen the bass definition.

Over the years, Ive developed the simple technique of setting my ill-fated precursor to Klipschs modern set of reference subs, the LF10, with its single active 10 driver, two passive ones and a 500-watt BASH amplifier, so low that I can barely hear it while I am standing next to it. The settings are at the lowest EQ and the volume knob ends up about ¼ of the way. Often I place my hand on the vibrating driver to ensure that I am indeed getting some output. Then I go back to my sweet spot. Sure enough, the frequency response is flat. To get idealistically flat frequency response, the deep bass sub-woofer is NOT obviously heard. It is only when you turn it off that it notice that something is missing. In that regard, I do often audition pieces of front-end equipment with my classic Klipsch corner Khorns and do NOT use any sub-woofers. The big ole horns do go deep enough for most music.

[artto]

If you feel you have to use a sub with a Khorn you either like your sound exaggerated, or your room has some substantial low frequency problems where standing waves are causing cancellations in the listening area of the room.

Also consider the efficiency of a sub compared to a Khorn. You really need quite a few of them to match the output level with similar low Doppler distortion of a Khorn. You can easily add some bass boost, either via a loudness contour control found on many preamps/receivers or EQ and achieve the same result, IF, your room is not causing standing wave/cancellation problems.

I would even argue against a sub with deep organ pedal tones. During the last year I installed a 16 section of Auralex DST LENRD bass traps along the rear horizontal room corner, & more recently a stack of MegaLENRDs in the rear vertical corners. To get the same bottom end fullness, slam, & depth without the LENRDs (Low End Node Reduction Device) requires that I have the EQ boosted 10dB at 20Hz to achieve the same (apparent loudness) result. But EQing didnt do as much to affect things like definition & inner detail, timber, etc. The LENRDs brought things out that I had never heard before. And allowed the system to be played, on average, 4.5dB lower, with the same amount of slam & impact. Really deep tones seemed to go right down through the floor. You could now actually feel 16Hz pedal tones.

You can also use the rooms resonant frequency to help boost the low-end if the room is large enough. My room has its fundamental resonant frequency at 19Hz. The overall measured system response is down only 9dB at 20Hz (without the LENRD's)(which is still better than the sensitivity most subwoofers have: 104dB - 9dB = 95dB). I'll be re-measuring the room response again soon to see how things correlate.