Why are people so ignorant?

[neo33]

"The Klipsch I personally would never recommend. Their reference stuff all sounds terrible to me no matter how long their broken in. Far too much horn effect IMO."

IMO, I tend to agree with him somewhat as I think the heritage line is way better then the reference line even with SS integrated home theatre amps. Though I wouldn't go as far as him saying I wouldn't recommend any speaker from the reference line.

[TBrennan]

Neo---Well the guy's preference is his business but his pelletheadedness is shown by the fact he says he doesn't like RFs because they've too much "horn effect".

This from speakers that use horns only as tweeters and are direct-radiators up to at least 2000hz and even higher with some models.

So the guy dislikes what he dislikes but he doesn't know why.

[jt1stcav]

LOL...too true!

[minn_male42]

if you read the thread again... look towards the end....

he's taking the polk's back to the store....

"Despite liking the look, build, and depth of the Polks, including their softness, I'm not sure I'm excited about their sound. I'm now leaning more toward returning them and getting the Klipsch or Ascend Acoustics because I'd like my sound to be a little more forward. At this point I always know I'm listening to a sound system with the Polks because they don't feel live but coming from another source and a little muted and dull. Some may like that feel and sound but I think it could get boring."

[3dzapper]

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On 4/19/2004 7:46:01 PM TBrennan wrote:

Neo---Well the guy's preference is his business but his pelletheadedness is shown by the fact he says he doesn't like RFs because they've too much "horn effect".

This from speakers that use horns only as tweeters and are direct-radiators up to at least 2000hz and even higher with some models.

So the guy dislikes what he dislikes but he doesn't know why.

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Tom, I was going to comment on that too. I looked up the speaker in question, thr RB-25, crossover frequency? 2670Hz above the fundamental frequency of just about any musical instrument except maybe the piccollo.

Rick

[skonopa]

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On 4/18/2004 8:03:54 AM DaddyDee wrote:

Vital,

What is odd about audiophiles is that they seem to be compelled to trash the topologies they do not prefer and to trash the people who incomprehensibly and foolishly prefer something different from themselves. As a collective, it seems that audiophiles are about the most unlikely to have a mature and non anxious attitude toward others' and their preferences. You will occasionaly see this even on this forum.

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Exactly. I've read that thread in the AVS forum (and btw, if you look in the general section of this forum, that same guy posted the same question there).

However, as mentioned, I've seen the same type of thing on here. I have seen people extol all the great virtuals of the Heritage speakers, then proceed to trash on the Reference. And God forbid somebody tries to counter with a rebuttal.

Yes, the one time I got to listen to the K-Horns up in Indy last summer was a wonderful experience, but at the same time, I absoulty love my RF-7s, especially backed by my B&K Reference 200.7 amp (yes, it is solid-state). The clarity and detail is phonamenal (sp)! With the B&K amp, they don't sound harsh or edgy at all! I don't have any place in my house that can accomidate K-horns (although, I might be able to fit them in one of the spare rooms I got down in the basement - perhaps in the future, I'll eventually get a pair and try).

Back to that thread on AVS. For the most part the thread was pretty civil, despite that one guy's strong opinions. I choose to ignore such strong opinions and go with what I liked to my ears. Believe me, I've listened to several models of speakers (and still do when I get the chance), but I found I still come back to my Klipsch RF-7s w/ B&K amp.

[richieb]

Reminds me of my visit to a high end stereo shop while on vacation in San Diego several years ago. The shop featured B&W speakers as I recall. Beatiful sounding and elegant in design and well they should be at $8000 the pair. I started talking of speakers I had owned and made the comment I had always loved the sound of one speaker brand in particular. Before I gave the brand he cut me short and said "you mean Klipsch? I was surprised that he guessed correctly and said yes, that I had owned LaScalas in the late 70's and always loved the sound. This clown new what brand I was referring to yet proceeded to tell me what a piece of junk they were. Horns this, horns that, a marketing gimmick with poor quality and design. But somehow he must have known many people favor this "sound". His problem was he had no Klipsch to sell. Poor baby.

[richieb]

Sorry for speeling. Possted two quicklly and diddn't chekc. My apalogees/

Rich

[IndyKlipschFan]

Dean G

"I came into this forum thinking much the same thing 3 years ago. I was relentless with my "they sound like P.A. speakers" comments. Under the worst conditions they do, but what I forgot is that no decent audiophile listens to their stuff under the worst conditions possible. Decent gear, proper placement, and some room treatment make all the difference in the world -- and bring Heritage to a level of realism of sound not even remotely approached by most of what is out there."

3 years or so we all hated you... How can you come to be so gracious in 2-3 years time and allow yourself to become the decent respectible person you are today? (You know I am kidding you too.)

The point it when we strip away some of the BS Hype in audio...and really listen to what we may or may not like..but remain open to choices... (Reference vs Heritage, SS vs Tube, Audio HT vs 2 channel.) It is all good. The Key is if you get good gear in these catagories..have a good room too. Your probably going to get good to great results!

[D-MAN]

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On 4/18/2004 10:01:34 AM DeanG wrote:

I came into this forum thinking much the same thing 3 years ago. I was relentless with my "they sound like P.A. speakers" comments. Under the worst conditions they do, but what I forgot is that no decent audiophile listens to their stuff under the worst conditions possible. Decent gear, proper placement, and some room treatment make all the difference in the world -- and bring Heritage to a level of realism of sound not even remotely approached by most of what is out there.

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People, what Dean said.

DM

[Colin]

Horns vs cones, part ixv

Ive heard Reference series loudspeakers up against Mission? Sonus Faber? (I forget) and Martin-Logan loudspeakers in retail store listening tests with the same piece of music (I think the amplifier was Yamaha). The volume had to be adjusted by ear of course for the Klipsch to be comparable to the others, but the Klipsch acquitted themselves quite well. The price was quite similar and the Mission/Sonus Fabers had a very smooth, liquid feel to the mid-range. The electrostatics were quite clear and open, though the bass did indeed sound good, it also felt as if it was NOT coming from something like the silver mesh of the loudspeakers.

There werent huge differences in this simple comparison, in my opinion. I liked the dynamics of the piano and drum, and the blat of the saxophone better on the Klipsch of course, but perhaps that is the different difference, which John Atkinson of Stereophile magazine describes. A distinction, Henry Fielding (17071754) said, without a difference. This distinction might be something I listen for, but then I am convinced that the dynamics of musical attack and decay, peak and distortion, are key to replicating the sonic illusion of a 3D musical performance in the home.

Computer games leave me cold. They are so far away from virtual reality. But the game I am playing is no less expensive. I am trying to recreate an audio reality in my home. In that regard, many of the gushing reviews I read about this improvement or that improvement to a typical cone and solid-state rig seem to be only small advances. Improvements that in many ways, the big ole horns have already: details, effortless, quiet, depth, background, soundstage, imaging and, of course, dynamics.

Are the horns so small they cup the sound like a pair of hands? Yeah, I think so. Perhaps even the mighty classic Klipsch corner Khorns could use a larger, wider mid-range horn. The gorgeous tuba-like horns of the Advantgarde loudspeakers certainly sound superb in the mid-range.

Therefore, do big ole horns sound more like amplified music than live performances? Maybe the Klipsch do, but the Advantgarde do NOT.

Are Klipsch reference loudspeakers colored? Perhaps they are. The walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossover, which I measured in three different homes certainly had mid-bass and upper mid-range bumps that greatly affected their sound. But I think many moderate priced systems do have a slight low bass or treble bump to give them that extra punch or shimmer.

We see it in the charts, but dont mind it if it sounds good. In fact, listening to a very flat and deep loudspeaker, like the VC E6c system (see EnjoyTheMusic.com archives), or the Khorn, takes quite some auditory and mental adjusting. At first things dont sound right. After a while they sound even, balanced and true, but sometimes a little loudspeaker with lots of color can make quite a musical little charmer (like the Axioms for $249).

I knew my Corns werent accurate. I didnt train my ears to hear heavily colored timbre and high efficiency and equate that to being accurate reproduction." I heard startling clarity, fast attacks, quick decays, soft clipping, rich dynamics, easy rhythm and pace, accurate timing, rich timbre and tone, details, texture, wide soundstage and pinpoint imaging. This reminded me of natural musical instruments and REALISTIC reproduction.

Plus, I could accomplish these with loudspeakers that sell dirt cheap because of their huge size and demanding front-end requirements.

That is why I am horny guy. If I was into racing cars, I would NOT be the guy in the $120K Formula One saying other cars arent real. I would be the guy in the $12K go-cart, zipping around the track with 8Gs of torque, saying this is racing man! It may NOT be the real thing, but it is the closest illusion of the real thing, for the least amount of money, that I have yet to see. Big ole horns ROCK

[JBryan]

I'm no expert and I certainly don't have the experience of some of the posters here but my take on "colored" sound is that first and foremost, all speakers are colored. Anything that transforms an electrical signal into mechanical and finally a sound wave can't help but be compromised in some way. And with all the varying speaker designs available to accomplish the transference, none of them can achieve perfect reproduction. The only true reference is a live performance (and that can easily be debated as well).

With no one design as a reference, I liken one's speaker preference to looking out of a tinted window. If the window is tinted blue, one will quickly become acclimated to that particular hue and when they step outside or visit someone else's home with pink-tinted windows, they will certainly notice the difference. The question is whether they like the blue tint they are used to or maybe they prefer the pinkish tint at their friends house. Different speaker designs reproduce music differently and its all compromised in some way. You just have to choose the poison you think tastes best.

Horns, Klipsch and Khorns in particular have a very different and distinctive voicing and timbre comared to say, B&W 801s or Watt Puppies. After listening to Khorns for years, the B&Ws and most cones sound too laid back for my tastes and I'd certainly define their sound as colored. I can certainly imagine that the cone crowd would have the same impressions about horns and Klipsch. Since there are so many more cone heads out there, Klipsch gets tagged with having colored sound. Its all relative.

Because Klipsch speakers are so efficient, they aren't able to mask deficiencies in source material and gear as readily as less-efficient designs. I had an amp that sounded like crap on Khorns - just too noisy and harsh. But when I hooked it up to a pr of ProAcs (88dB), it sounded wonderful - very quiet. I've found that its much more difficult to match gear with efficient speakers mainly because you don't have a speakers' lower efficiency acting as a filter (sorta). Most amps and gear out there is not designed or tested with horns in mind so the choices for a good match are few and mistakes and bad decisions abound - I've certainly had my share. Anyway JMO.

Have fun -Bryan