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Help with room size...


IndyKlipschFan

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Not sure how to apply the math...

Before framing

17' 2" wide

10' ceilings (Or very close 9' 10")

29' to work with going back... This can vary any amount.

This is open space in a basement meaning it is open now to create a music / HT room. There will be a real stage at one end coming out approx 6 feet from the back wall, on the sides the speakers will only come out aprox. 4 feet out if that makes sense with a skrim (cloth covered in front of them to hide the audio speakers on the sides.) The pull down screen will come down flush with the 4 feet out skrim from the ceiling.(Aprox 8 ft wide.)

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I am looking for some input on the room as well as to how far back I should go?

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H=1 W=1.26 D=1.59

Stolen from somewhere on the list.

Assuming the formula is correct, your ceiling with insulation/sound proofing, would be about 9.5 feet. So Ideal width would be 9.5x1.26= about 12 feet. For the depth, 9.5x1.59= about 15 feet. Where you go from there, I haven't a clue.3.gif

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Wow, so assuming the formula you gave me to work with....a rectangle room with a possibility of having 17' 6" and 10 foot ceilings and 29' back if necessary..... OK Taking a breath here...

Is "optimised" at because of the 10 foot ceiling... 12' 6" and 15' 9"....???

What a waste to downsize a large area to work with! No way would I build a Home Theater/performance stage in a basically 12 1/2 x 16 foot room. If the Equipment came 4 feet out stage was 6.. All I have is 11 feet till the back wall.. Nope, not gonna happen. How could you then have a area for people to dance in front of the stage and two rows of theater seats too?

I think I will keep the big space, and choose to optimise it with sound treatments. Now going how far back, we shall see..LOL

I feel like a roman emperor asking for advice... KILL the man with bad news... I want to hear wooo hooo! You have a big room!! Congrats, we will make the most of it... Try this... Like a room within a room, but use every inch you can....maybe after all said and done 16'6" wide 9'6" tall and something like 22-28 feet back. I am sure I am breaking Artto's rules, or designer acoustics physics laws... in acoustics 101...

However, I will take the bigger room and treat it, rather than go that small!

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Your rooms proportions are too long. I was hoping that maybe, applying the half-room principal to the ceiling dimension might compensate to some degree. But it doesnt. Youre going to have some very serious low-end problems. Excessive bass in some areas. Substantial cancellations in other areas. In fact the frequency mode spacing looks like a roller coaster.

Even using some of the European methods for determining room proportions (R.Walker BBC) the length seems to be a problem.

About the best thing I can suggest is that possibly you might shorten the room, using the space behind a wall for equipment/storage.

The other thing youre going to have to consider if you want good sound in that room is some substantial bass trapping in the vertical corners for sure, and then maybe the horizontal corners.

I recently installed a stack of Auralex MegaLENRD bass traps in the rear corners of my room. Even my wife, who was pissed when she saw them (theyre quite large) & found out how much they cost, changed her tune after hearing the difference it made. Klipsch recently installed these in their HT room too.

http://www.auralex.com/profiles/profiles.asp?Pro=Klip

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Artto.. well thats where the flexibility (hopefully) comes in..on the length.

Let's assume we have a 4 feet starting point for the speakers in the front. (This area will be where the speakers are hidden and equipment is stored on the sides of the stage area, your right.) So from that point...How far back would you go? Again working from a 29 foot balnk page..minus 4 of that so 25 to what? The stage will come out an additional 2 feet in the middle.. Leave a little room for possible dancing at parties and two rows of seating... (big oversized couch for two...and another one for 4 behind it.)

I thought 2 pairs of pro la scalas on the sides... 24" cabinets...4 feet of width..per side..would have been ideal? (I could also stack the La Scalas, if necessary) So 4' on both sides..8 feet total of the 16' 6" possible.... leaves me with a + - 8 foot diagonal screen for HT in between with pleanty of room to spare flushed with a scrim?

So many people have said, I wish I had at least 14-15-16 feet in here (Width wise) I thought.. whew, I have a home run!

STOP THE PRESSES!!

... Artto I went to the arelex site you sent above and Klipsch uses a 17 feet wide by 24' 3" room. They did not state the height. I think I have been in the same room listed and it feels like 10 feet to me but it might be 12?

http://www.auralex.com/profiles/KlipschCaseStudy.PDF

Seems if Klipsch feels this turned out to be a great room, maybe I could find it sounds OK to me?

Wishfull thinking... I am sure, but a glimmer of hope restored!

It is nice to have the headquarters for Auralex mybe 5-10 min max from my house. Maybe I should duplicate this room for my own use? Now just how much Klipsch spent to achieve these oustanding numbers... May push my budget out the window too. LOL I have no concept of the total package price for their room for sound tratment. But definitely got me re excited this might work.

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I wish I had a room that size. I am stuck with a 15x20 with 8' ceiling. The screen is on the 20' wall, Khorns in the corner on the left and false corner on the right. Belle under the screen, Cornwalls on either side in rear right next to couch arms, not behind it. Couch 15' back against wall. Ceramic tile floor, paneled walls. NOT IDEAL AT ALL!!! The sound is so much better than any theater I have ever been in, I can't believe "IDEAL" could be any better. "Saving Private Ryan" had me ducking the bullets. I installed all the electronics in the room behind the wall the couch is backed up against and installed a repeater for the remote. I was going to install the projector in the other room and only leave a small hole for the light to come through but I couldn't install a larger screen for the size it would need to be with the projector that far back. The fan is so quiet, I never hear it. It sounds to me like you would have a fun room. I would think one Lascalla on each side and one for the center would be plenty for the front. I would put the center on rollers so it could be rolled aside for the dancing. A couple of Cornwalls in the rear or 2 more Lascalla's and I would think it would be party/movie time.

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Indy, forgive me if Im not quite understanding the whole picture yet. I think I'm having trouble following your descriptions. But...........

Regarding the stage projection, & any recessed area (for the screen for instance), the equipment cabinet/storage areas on either side of the stage, etc., all of these things will help to break up the sound. Room modes become very difficult & complex to calculate once you depart from a pure rectangular configuration. Starting from the basic footprint of the room, you could easily take 4 or 5 feet off the room length. And that would also approximate the room dimensions that Klipsch used in their HT demo room.

As far as the Klipsch HT room is concerned, dont forget about the acoustical treatment that was used for the whole room. It wasnt just about MegaLENRD bass traps in the vertical corners. They also used Auralexs ELiTE wall panels & diffusors. I have no idea how much those cost. I suspect its rather expensive.

I can not emphasize enough how important room acoustics are. If you have the opportunity to start out on the right foot, as well as do whats necessary to tame reflections & standing waves, there is absolutely nothing else that will make your system sound better. Even as good as my room is, the addition of the MegaLENRDs made me keep going back & digging out old recordings. It was like hearing them for the first time.

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Hey Indy old buddy!

perhaps we're taking this 'optimized room size thing too literally for you" As I understand it, the reason for the 'golden ratios' (which are used also in photographic composition and occur frequently in nature) is to avoid having room dimensions that tend to amplify the same frequency (10x10x10) or harmonics, which are halves, doubles, and other multiples of dimensions (10x20x40 room would be VERY BAD).

Be happy with your large room because I know you enjoy entertaining and karaoke/production. (for the Forum members- Indy has a GOLDEN THROAT).

Forget the 10' ceiling height, its a blessing. So long as no other dimensions are double that, you're mostly okay. Now look at the other two dimensions and try to get a 1.26 or 1.59 ratio out of them. Multiplying the 17.5 x 1.59 gives 27.82 feet, almost EXACTLY what you're proposing, so I don't see the problem.

Please refer to the other acoustic threads refering to Ethan's bass traps and phone me regarding construction details. Maybe we'll just get together and buy the OC fibreglass material and build a BUNCH of bass traps for both of our rooms.

How's this theory, Artto?

Michael

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On 4/19/2004 1:11:08 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

Hey Indy old buddy!

perhaps we're taking this 'optimized room size thing too literally for you" As I understand it, the reason for the 'golden ratios' (which are used also in photographic composition and occur frequently in nature) is to avoid having room dimensions that tend to amplify the same frequency (10x10x10) or harmonics, which are halves, doubles, and other multiples of dimensions (10x20x40 room would be VERY BAD).

Be happy with your large room because I know you enjoy entertaining and karaoke/production. (for the Forum members- Indy has a GOLDEN THROAT).

Forget the 10' ceiling height, its a blessing. So long as no other dimensions are double that, you're mostly okay. Now look at the other two dimensions and try to get a 1.26 or 1.59 ratio out of them. Multiplying the 17.5 x 1.59 gives 27.82 feet, almost EXACTLY what you're proposing, so I don't see the problem.

Please refer to the other acoustic threads refering to Ethan's bass traps and phone me regarding construction details. Maybe we'll just get together and buy the OC fibreglass material and build a BUNCH of bass traps for both of our rooms.

How's this theory, Artto?

Michael

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Well, quite frankly, it's not very good. "half-baked"

You see, the problem with ignoring room modes (especially if you have the opportunity not to) is that you not only set yourself up for some standing wave problems (amplifying certain frequencies & their harmonics as you put it), you also cause the exact opposite effect (cancellation or nulling of those same frequencies) in other areas of the room, usually right where we like to sit & listen/watch.

You cannot ignore the height dimension in three dimensional space. You may 'look at it' differently (ie: half room principal), but not ignore it.

Also the 10x20x40 proportions you mention actually produce a smoother low-end than the one Indy has proposed. So it's not all that bad. What is really bad is when all three dimensions coincide (ie: 20x20x20).

The objective of room modes is not what many people often think. Most are surprised to learn that you want AS MANY ROOM MODES AS POSSIBLE. Not minimize them. You want as many as possible & closely spaced as this produces the smoothest frequency response.

It's not that any room outside of the "Golden Mean" (1:1.26:1.59)(also known as the Fibonacci Sequence, among other things) or the BBC standards 1.1*(W/H)<(L/H)<4.5*(W/H)-4 will automatically sound bad.

2.2 4.0 5.0

It's not that simple. Many factors come into play. And there are many alternatives to compensate, to some degree. All at additional cost.

Also remember that the bass frequencies comprise nearly half of the musical range.

And before you decide to start making your own OC bass traps I suggest you talk to forum member moon. He did it & didn't seem think it was worth the trouble. I would also look into the Roxul AFB or RHT80 mineral wool insulation that our Canadian friend Mike Hurd brought to our attention. It's far superior acoustically with much better broadband performance. And again, I reiterate, it's not about absorption. It's about both absorption AND diffusion. And its also about BROADBAND absorption & diffusion.

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I will agree though, that it's the principal of spreading out the modes and not the specific ratio, which is critical. Just by reading different literature we will see that may ratios have been proposed as the "golden room ratio" but they all share the common fact that mathematically spread many modes around the room.

(height : width : length):

1.00 : 1.14 : 1.39

1.00 : 1.26 : 1.59

1.00 : 1.28 : 1.54

1.00 : 1.60 : 2.33

Any of these do quite well but you can also use some other variations with pretty good results too. Given that you already have a fixed height and width you can work from that. Take a look at the "WAVES" and "MODES" a room resonance calculator By Dr. Floyd E. Toole to give you a general idea of how a room will theoretically perform. Note that these figures are looking at interior finished dimensions... so if you are going to "drop" the ceiling... or have multiple levels, it should be considered in the calculations.

Although this will give you a basis for design... you will discover that in practice, there are many other factors involved and the room modes will rarely perfectly match up with the theory.

Good luck...

Rob

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I should note here, the 4 pro La Scalas are for live/ Karaoke music...and singing. I used these in college, and love them for this purpose. The idea, as crazy as it sounds, is to have the best Karaoke setup I can put together. Not like just a so so system like you see at most bars, but a true pro system that I can have a place at home to practice/perform/share with others in song. I still have friends that come over to perform live and sing sometimes. Live music is still cool. Although now my bands (at 42 yrs old) come on a CDG..LOL.. (I somehow lost the desire to go out during the week in a smoke filled bar from 10- 2 am to sing with 20-30 yr olds sometimes drinking heavily off key and even though THEY were having a great time...I wasn't.)

With my own CDG's I play what I want, when I want, without the drummers girlfriend who wants to sing, too, or the bass player or drummer with ego problems. Hey man where is my Jimmy Hendrix guitar solo or drum solo??? LOL So, ultimately my intention is to have a really cool place where kids and adults (with kid hearts) can sing on a stage have the lights shining down on them like a really cool nightclub. Karaoke is about 90% just having fun, throw the ego out the window and go for it.

So how do you do this ... you have a LOT of lights, club lights as well that "dance to the music beats" and a 16 channel board, for multiple singers, inputs, with a true stereo digital delay, Pro model EQ, monitors, great mics.. And almost 5k songs to choose from... OK, so you get the idea... it is out of control. My wife has nicknamed it, the "American Idol Theater." More of a place to sing, rather than to watch movies... But I assume if I do it right, it will be a great place to watch movies too.

The HT in this same space will be a 5.1 set up, using all Heritage Klipsch Cornwalls. (I have been inspired by some of you on here as well as my own 2 ears to see if a very well laid out system all around.) 3 Vertical Cornwall II's (now on their sides) up front...and Cornwall I's in the rear...With a sub to be added is the "Nirvana" I hope it to be. Timbre wise I am very excited all around.

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Indy, honestly, no offense. But if that's really what you're after, I wouldn't worry about room proportions & mode theory, or even acoustics too much.

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Artto.. you said.."Indy, honestly, no offense. But if that's really what you're after, I wouldn't worry about room proportions & mode theory, or even acoustics too much."

Why do I feel like I just insulted you somehow and your expertise? Why is it wrong to want a great room for this purpose? What a better project to stretch our horizons a little to make it ok for both purposes? E.G. Live music/karaoke AND HT too.

I will keep everyone posted on the progress this summer.

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LOL. I kinda felt the same way.....that I was insulting you!

Explanation..........for one........if vocals (or "live" vocals) are important to you, room modes in your size of room should make no difference. The frequencies are not low enough.

Two, I too have played professionally in bands & actually still do (although I'm 10 years older than you), but I think I'm going to retire on that. To me, Karaoke is the 'wannabe' equivalent of "jam night" for musicians. It can be great fun. Occasionally, a few folks show up that can actually play (or in your case sing). Now don't get me wrong, you may actually have a great voice, I have no idea. But the word Karaoke just sends visions of my brother-in-law dancing through my head (and believe me, my wife's side of the family has no musical talent). So my initial response is "yikes!". I guess it's no different than fantasizing that "you're really there" as most of us two-channel folks do. It just never occured to me anyone would go to this extreme for their own in-house Karaoke setup. HT is another subject, but it's main purpose is usually not 'accuracy'.

So I guess what I'm saying is that much of my applied knowledge/experience may not be as useful in these situations. In fact, it may be beneficial to apply things exactly the opposite compared to what I've done with my room.

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Artto said...

To me, Karaoke is the 'wannabe' equivalent of "jam night" for musicians. It can be great fun. Occasionally, a few folks show up that can actually play (or in your case sing). Now don't get me wrong, you may actually have a great voice, I have no idea. But the word Karaoke just sends visions of my brother-in-law dancing through my head (and believe me, my wife's side of the family has no musical talent). So my initial response is "yikes!". I guess it's no different than fantasizing that "you're really there" as most of us two-channel folks do. It just never occured to me anyone would go to this extreme for their own in-house Karaoke setup.

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Well actually we are on the same page still...(kinda)..LOL

With Karaoke I use the 80- 15 - 4 - 1 rule...

80% are just average singers,, with little or no training...Sounds, OK, nothing great, they are not too bad either. This is where the majority of folks who can keep a basic tune fall in. They have fun, you have fun. It doesn't sound so bad you feel like running, and you find yourself singing along with them. Kinda like your local guy with a guitar friday or saturday night singing at 10PM -1AM at your local bar on stage.

15% Are either too much loaded with alcohol to carry a tune or sing a song that is just not them. (This is where everyone cringes...and yes, maybe your brother in law fits this catagory.

He thinks he can sing, but he just sucks.. Like people say, do not lose your day job!) The American Idol TV show proves this theory out fast, that 95% of people are just average to poor. And thats ok.

4% actually from time to time find a song or artist that they can sing pretty good and perform it too. Even as much as most people hate say a Ricky Martin, or Britney Spears, Toby Keith or ______ << add whoever. Very few can mimic them on their level as well. Now creative for the fun of it wise, I once did a very bad "overdone style wise" like Bob Dylan singing during the hollidays.. "Have yourself a merry little x mas..." Again, all in fun, everyone cracked up, and it was fun. Change the words to something current "in the news" sometime, and watch people laugh if you do it in fun. Comedy shows on the radio do it daily.

1% Seem to find a gem of a song every once in a while, and make it theirs! They do this by copying the artist exactly or close to it, or changing it slightly to their own style. Believe me, on those rare occasions when it clicks, it is wonderful! And just because your a 9-10, on a 1- 10 scale on a particular song, does not mean your a 9-10 all the time too. Just like your favorite singer/ artist on any cd.... Some songs are just better than others.

Now granted for the un initiated, say you have 20-25 singers...in a typical Karaoke night...doing 2-4 songs.... That's 40-100 songs in an evening. Maybe 1-3 songs total all night that are a 9-10. LOL And again...That's OK.

Karaoke in Japanese culture is all about sharing the good times...they have karaoke rooms where corporate execs or workers rent out a room and let loose to build friendships... OK and drink a LOT of beer too. Think of it like a karaoke jukebox in a sealed hotel room much like the movie with Bill Murray "Lost in Translation." Maybe they "get it" more than we do here. Let loose, have fun, who cares? I have a friend in Japan who shares with me many stories of "bonding sessions" at 1-4 am...LOL If you miss the late trains..why not drink a lot and sing???

This is what I do not get?

e.g. Your local guitar player, or keyboard player often with a drum machine, loads of effects, and even sometimes playing with background tracks, is elevated to a "real" musician..... And a good singer...That does the same...(background tracks) is a no-body. This amazes me. (OK, fair enough, a lot of very average to bad lounge singers, very few good ones just as in Karaoke, but you get my point.) Also this I find interesting... Most *real life* musicians that are singers, suck at karaoke. I am not sure why, but I have seen many a good to great guitar players who sing that would be a 6-8 at best on most of the stuff they try out Karaoke wise. They claim it is the "feel" I say BS...

I have sung my whole life. Church choirs, HS, College vocal groups... And yes I even played in bands since HS and College.. Been there, done that and I think I gave the t shirts away!! LOL. (We were a very good cover band in the middle 80's that played at bars and college Dance/Parties/Concerts.) I went to college to get a degree, I later got married, and started a family. I guess my "band" today is on a cd. Well, CDG. They play in Key, they play the songs I want, and stick around for as little or as long as I want too. LOL Some of the higher priced = Higher quality CDG's you would swear they lifted from the original masters complete with background vocals too. Over great Klipsch speakers they ROCK!

Today, professionally, I sing national anthems for sports teams and corporate events. All of this is a hobby. (READ: Not my real job.) I have entered some of those zainey radio contests where you change the words to a song to win a prize....and have been very lucky to have won some of those as well. It is all in fun. I assure you, I do NOT take myself too seriously. I can sing, and feel I am very lucky to do so in many different styles too. Still, I do not at 42, believe for one moment I am going on the road do my own "THANG" and become rich n famous. Especially singing karaoke out or at home. Just again, I want to use very good pro gear and have it sound professional too. I do assure you also, that the prize money, tickets and trips I have won are real.

e.g. (When was the last time you won 1k dollars up front, got flown to California all expenses paid for 5 days 4 nights at the Hilton Universal studios, got to perform at "The House of Blues" on Sunset Boulevard, spending money, tickets to Universal studios, being filmed for CNN to run the contest/ Ad for the contest you entered...On TV for 2 days... Free stuff along the way, and all your meals and entertainment provided??) All this for "Singing In The Shower..???"..... I have. NBA, NFL, tickets to other concerts locally too, you get the idea. Ricky Martins "Livin La Vida Loca" suddenly became "Using- the- Dove- a- soap- a." Hey, it worked for me!!

I just wanted a place I could unwind and sing either by myself or with my family. Also to have friends over occasionally, or themed parties. (Halloween is always fun in costume event, even if it is ELVIS or Austin Powers!) The idea is to blow off some steam, and have fun at home. Not to seriously think your a rock star in training..LOL.. BTW, I have heard also a lot of jam nights too.. Most of those are way worse than most average Karaoke shows trust me!

So I thought to myself, why not build a room for this purpose? Besides, it is my "golf hobby" LOL. I assure you, a lot less expensive! So I guess I have talked myself into it..and wanted to use pro gear and make it a lot of fun too. Kinda sounds like a good safe hobby to me!

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I just wanted to put my 2 cents in, ive heard Indys voice, hes a professional signer, and sounds very good.

He does need this room, if anything Indy could make his own recording studio, which i have suggested to him at one time.

1 set of cornwalls is for 480 Sq feet, my whole house is 990Sq feet, so i would have to take all the walls out, for about half the home to actually hear them properly.

This isnt counting the Klipschorns i have in my 15X15 foot room. The living room, im using the TSCM as a sub cabinet, for now, because i can not get far enough back to actually enjoy the bass of the Klipschorn.

I am only 8 feet from the front of the Klipschorns to my sitting position, so i am actually still sitting between them, not in front of them, to fully enjoy them.

I would have to be back at least 15 feet from the Klipschorns to fully enjoy them. That isnt going to happen in my house, unfortunately.

5 cornwalls, in the room Indy mentioned, alone the room sounds to small.

4 cornwalls will fill 1000 feet quite nicely, having a second Karokee system with 4 La Scalas, i think this room would open the bass section of the La Scalas better IMO.

Its like the old saying goes, the further back, the better the sound.

So what im really saying is i wish i had this room for myself, i would also enjoy it, because i need it too.

Regards Jim

9.gif

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