Klipsch Knockoffs - Shinall..Have You Seen These?

[D-MAN]

Smells FISHY even for a first post!

Please elaborate on your "review"!

DM

[hoorah29]

I understand your concern. I was actually suprised b/c this is the 1st day i've been in the forum, apperently, and i saw Shinall. The reason i jumped on here is b/c i have klipsch center and surrounds.

Setup:

Sony 57" widescreen, Onkyo 787 A/V reciever (100x6), Shinall XT200'S - main, Klipsch RC7 - center, Klipsch RS7 - surrounds, sony dvd.

The Shinall speakers have a horn loaded midrange driver and a super bullet tweeter w/ double, speretly sealed, 12" woofers. If you don't believe me try to get a closer trusted poster to go listen to they - they won't be disappointed.

[chops]

Say, since you have a pair of the Shinall XT200'S, why not post up some pics of the internals? And if possible, could you also post a pic of the specs in the owners manual?

I think I speak for everyone here when I say it would be interesting to see the goods!

[hoorah29]

I really don't want to give up any mechanical information, but you can go to www.shinallandcompany.com and look at the speakers and email or contact Mr. Shinall. Tell him Max refferd you.

[M6 Driver]

Were not looking for the plans of the Death Star here.

Just a shot of the Crossovers, exposed drivers etc...

[3dzapper]

"I always thought that a K-Horn design without the requirement for a corner would be great.

so, why not build a woofer cabinet with regular sealed or bass-reflex design.

thats what this company has done.

sounds like a great idea that should have been done a long time ago."

To do such a thing would be Heresy!

Ever hear of a Cornwall? Belle Klipsch?

Rick

[KhornKerry]

I called Gary Shinall and made arrangements to see his shop. Spring Texas is about 8 to 10 miles from my work place so I went up there at lunch. We walked through the woodworking shop to get to the Showroom. He had 14 of the Khorn clones (KKS-1) in the room 2 real Khorns one with the old wooden squawker, about 8 of his XT-200, about 4 XA-15 and 4 XA-12

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His KKS-1 all had fine wood veneers mostly walnut but 2 pair were oak and 1 mahogany. All of the models had a hardwood veneer most had an oil finish. The Speakers were of 3/4 inch plywood and the build quality looked to be high. He made the mid range horn himself out of aluminum the driver was a University. Some of the KKS-1 had 2 tweeters, can't remember the brand names. Some of the tweeters looked like a bullet in the center.

He played all of the speaker types for me. The Corner horns sounded good, I was not familiar with the music but it sounded OK in the short test. The Heresy look-alike speaker sounded good also. The dual woofer his XT-200 did not sound as clean at higher volume as his other speakers.

I could not say his corner horn speaker was better are worse than the Khorn in that short of time but it obviously was in the same class. The music source was a CD and run with McIntosh amps. I have gotten use to listing to SACDs and DVDAs and CDs don't sound that good to me anymore.

The woodworking shop was large and the equipment looked first rate.

Gary was very friendly.

His add on Audiogon.

"New Corner horn speaker systems sold in pairs. Available in walnut, oak and mahogany. Our speaker systems are no compromise when compared to the "Klipschorn". See our web site at http:www.shinallandcompany.com

[KhornKerry]

Next picture

[D-MAN]

Why is it that nobody is making a Klipsch "SHORTHORN" knockoff? Why did that one go extinct or remain otherwise ignored? Doesn't it sound good? PWK patented it, and he was no fool. What gives?

DM

[Audible Nectar]

"I really don't want to give up any mechanical information, but you can go to www.shinallandcompany.com and look at the speakers and email or contact Mr. Shinall. Tell him Max refferd you."

What??? Do you sign a non-disclosure agreement when you buy these things?? Or, do you sign a non-disclosure agreement when you WORK for them?

Somethin's a li'l funny here

[HDBRbuilder]

I talked to Mr. Shinall on the phone this afternoon. Here is the scoop from our short conversation.

He sounds like a really nice guy. He is about 60 years old. He lost his long-time job to corporate pull-out to overseas not that long ago. Even when he was working, he built speakers as a sideline thing and has been doing it for over 30 years.

In the 1960's he made a few trips to visit with PWK. He told PWK that he intended to build himself a pair of K-horn copies, because he couldn't afford to buy factory made ones and he thought they were the best speakers made. He bought the drivers and such from PWK for his original copies. Later on in the 1960's, he contacted PWK again and told him he wanted another set of drivers and horns, because he was gonna build a copy of the LaScala for a center channel between his home-built K-horns...BUT he was gonna change the design of the LaScala somewhat so that the cabinet matched up aesthetically with his K-horn copies. PWK sold him the drivers and asked him to send some pictures of what he built. He sent the pictures to PWK, and was very surprised to see the Belle Klipsch come out a year or so later looking very much like the center-channel speaker he had built. He told me that he took great pride in the fact that PWK might have used his re-work of the LaScala cabinet design to base the aesthetics of the Belle Klipsch speaker upon. He did NOT claim to have invented the Belle Klipsch speaker, he just stated that it looked very much like his LaScala re-work design, and he was proud that PWK liked its basic appearance so much that he "adopted" it for the Belle Klipsch.

He has a 3000 square foot shop with a little showroom built into it. He just builds the speakers and puts them into the showroom so that people can listen to them, and if they want them, he will sell them. He said he has been doing this for many years as a sideline and hobby. Most of what he sold over the years was made for people who had heard his speakers and wanted a pair for themselves...basically a "word-of-mouth" advertising thing. I asked him if he intended to expand into a full-blown operation, he said no. He said that he is too old to do anything like that...and he intends to keep things as they are.

His midrange horns are welded up out of sheet aluminum by himself, with welded-on brackets for the drivers to mount to. His XT200 model is built in the same basic aesthetics as the K-horn is (but is NOT triangular in its rear for corner use), with a top-housing containing the tweeter/s and midrange horn, and the lower portion of the cabinet is basically the equivalent of two stacked separate heresy-type sealed cabinets with one 12" short-throw woofer in each one...IOW a large cabinet, with a horizontal divider in it creating the equivalent of two Heresy cabinets in interior volume....sort of a super Heresy. He said the mid-horn is a 600Hz one for that speaker, whereas the midhorn for his K-horn copy is a 400Hz horn. He uses no MDF in his builds, only quality 3/4" plywood. For his smaller speaker, he builds them with butt joints out of a luan-veneered plywood, then veneers over the cabinet's plywood with paper-backed veneer, because it is easier for him than trying to get chip-free miter-cuts using the thin veneers found on TODAY's black walnut-veneered plywood. He prefers the Luan for a good substrate to apply that veneer to because it "grips" the adhesive so well.

He told me that he recently put up a website because somebody had suggested he do so. His website got the attention of Audiogon folks, who in turn got its attention on this forum. He is aware of this thread, and has read it. He sounded hurt about it...and doesn't really understand why he is getting "bashed" so much on this forum. He feels that he is just trying to make a long-time hobby of his pay for itself and show a bit of profit...especially important now that his job left these shores.

I asked him if he had any help or expected to need to hire anybody for his little business. He said that he didn't want to deal with employees and all that, and it would remain a one-man operation as a sideline. He lamented that on occasion he gets a handful of special-orders, but trying to get them out in the high quality build he is proud of causes him to stay up late at night in order to meet the delivery time he gives the customer. He keeps his operation's sales primarily within a small radius of the shop because he normally delivers them himself or the buyer comes to pick them up.

I suggested that in his website he give full credit to PWK for his cornerhorn model design. I think he intends to do so. He said he has had lots of emails ever since this thread began and he can't get anything done AND properly answer all the emails he has at the same time, but he will do his best. He said he answered 25 emails last night alone!

This is what went on in the conversation with him. I will NOT comment on any ethics involved or anything else. Everybody has their own set of ethics and everybody has their own sense of right or wrong. It is not up to me to make those parameters for anybody else. He has a great respect for PWK and his speaker designs...that much was obvious to me...and for ME, that is enough! Anybody else on this forum trying to turn a hobby into something that can support itself and maybe make a bit of profit on the side? Just a thought.

[jt1stcav]

I have nothing against any Klipsch "knockoffs", as long as there are no legal/patent infringements involved. I'm just afraid to see these Shinalls (or any other Klipsch-like horn speakers) take over the Klipsch Heritage market entirely. Of course that all depends on their construction and sound quality whether they could even compete with the real deal. Even if they do sound as good, if not better than any Heritage Series loudspeaker, I'd hate to see the entire Heritage lineup disappear due to people trying to save a buck by purchasing a less expensive Klipschorn-like clone. I wonder how Fred Klipsch and company will react to this sort of competition...

Edit; I posted before reading Andy's post above. Seems Mr. Shinall is a decent sort not trying to rip off Klipsch in any capacity. The fact that PWK had first hand knowledge of Mr. Shinall and his horn speaker design is testimoney enough for me.

[mark1101]

Sounds like it might be an idea to contract Mr. Shinall to build a set of exact Khorn cabinets, while collecting the rest of the parts off ebay and from this forum.

Then, assemble at home. It sounds like Mr. Shinall could obviously make an exact replica if required.

[mark1101]

By the way Andy, nice job. Excellent report. SOunds like Mr. Shinall is a respectable craftsman. I'll bet his work is very well done.

[KhornKerry]

HDBRbuilder

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Mr. Shinall told me the same story about the Belle. He seems like an OK guy.

[sunnysal]

one guy building heritage inspired speakers will not "take over the market", so no one should have any worries there. I think it is great that the guy has a small volume production of these things, a lot like the people building x-overs, etc. for the same market space, no problem that I see. I DO think acknowledgment of the source (or inspiration, design, whatever he wants to call it) should be made to PWK or Klipsch just to keep things transparent and above board, with that caveat I say more power to him! I may save some pennies for a "belle" center channel! regards, tony

[chops]

Heck, if my woodworking skills were that good, I would try doing the same thing. Maybe I would change the visual design of it a bit, but keep the same concept behind it.

[Dflip]

Hoorah:

Thank you for your response. As you can see, there have been a lot of comments and questions about what these speakers look/sound like. Your first posts raised concern about the quality of the product and wanting to keep how it is made secret seemed strange to many of us. It made it look like you might even work for him. As a result, a number of people have made phone calls/visits to get the goods, so to speak.

The speakers seem to be well made. I guess someone will go and attempt to do a detailed comparison between his speakers and actual Klipsch heritage speakers. Many of us have performed mild surgery on the crossovers of our heritage speakers and are looking for information and details about what is in them. This is a unique forum where all the members know what Klipsch put in the speakers and how to modify them to make them better. Not many speaker companies have a site where it's members continue to pick apart and modify their product. It is all in the search of great sound.

The Shinall website was a little unclear in regards to the details that we talk about, who makes the woofer, squawker and tweeter; what parts are in the crossover and the wiring used internally. There have been other attempts at making Klipsch heritage copies at different levels of quality in workmanship and sound.

Your comments have added to the discussion and generated more interest in Gary's product than he could ever have expected. It may either be a tempest in a teapot, or potential sales for him in the future.

[Deang]

He shouldn't feel hurt. I think most here were just trying to determine if he was putting out a quality product or not. Obviously, interest is very high, and he should feel flattered as well, in spite of some of the negativity.

It would certainly be appropriate if he gave credit where credit is due (on his website). The problem is, if he starts throwing PK's name around, then Klipsch might have legal recourse. He might be better off leaving well enough alone, and selling them based on their own merit, with his name alone.

I wish he would join us and share. Since Klipsch had to discontinue production to find a new source for drivers, it really makes me wonder what he is using exactly. I have heard from a trustworthy source that the networks are also "cloned".

I'm sure Klipsch will "survive" the competition. He apparently doesn't have any aspirations of going "global", and in fact, doesn't seem all that interested in capturing any significant market share. If interest is high, and he won't ship, or hire employees -- that will keep him very small too. I think Klipsch could care less.

It wouldn't be the first time someone sold cloned versions of the Klipschorn. Like the ads used to say, "There's only one Klipschorn".

If the quality is good, you mind as buy them. I don't see any difference between that and buying used off of eBay. Either way, Klipsch isn't getting your money.

[mark1101]

Good comment. The Heritage series ARE somewhat like what Harley Davidson has created. A fine and adequate product all on its own. However, it is also a platform that lends itself to modification and personalization.

The cool part of the Heritage series is having the authenticity and originality as a starting point.

For me, stock has always been fine. I have enjoyed all of the authentic pairs of Heritage speakers I have owned over the years, and the unknown history but assured enjoyment each pair has brought to me as a successive owner.

Mr. Shinall sounds like a talented craftsman who can deliver an authentic clone that represents a huge $$ savings for a nice appearance. However, the lack of PWK authenticity may play a role to some who might rather have an older pair and a piece of history.