I doubt you are going to follow this but....

[maxg]

as much to help me understand what I am trying to do I'll create this and see where it goes:

Background:

AS you all know I have been struggling with my powerhouse amp/ZTPRE combo for a couple of weeks. I flirted with 6550 tubes but have returned to the EL34's for the time being - but only for their performance with classical music.

At the same time - after playing with the Yamaha digital amp I am beginning to have doubts over the ZTPRE itself.

To further muddy the waters - we played with Tony's old amp - the cheapo Tsakiridis (Odyseus - the amp not the guy) - and the sound was stunningly good (and I mean stunningly good!!) with CD. We didnt try it out with my TT as there is a problem with a channel imbalance from my cart. The cheapo unit has neither balance nor dual volume controls (as the ZTPRE has).

anyway that is the background - now here is what is coming:

Some more background first:

The guy that has built the record cleaning machine (who I am working with to strike a deal with a global distributor/manufacturer) has also built a phono stage he reckons is the business. He is bringing the unit round to my house tonight to side by side with the Accoustic Signature Tango phono stage I have. That will be an interesting comparion as I know the Tango unit is a good one for its price range (around 600 euro over here - I compared it 9 others at similar prices before choosing it). He sells this phono stage for similar money.

Ahead:

So we are going to test out this new phono stage. The thing is that Tony is convinced we are unlikely to hear much difference however much better or worse the unit actually is as the EL34 setup will mask the differences. So what we need is a backup way to ascertain differences if Tony is correct.

The only way to use the Odyseus will be to retain the ZTPRE in the circuit using that to balance the signal prior to it getting to the amp. IF concurrently I wire the CD player both direct into the Odyseus and via the ZTPRE I should be able to volume balance the sound and get an idea of what damage or otherwise the ZTPRE is doing to the sound (effecitvely killing 2 birds with one stone).

Thereafter I will be able to compare the 2 phono stages through 2 very different setups to evaluate the differences. I will also be able to assess what change there is in classical music on vinyl going from one amp to the other - at least to an extent.

Frankly this test scares me a little. There is a distinct possibility I will prefer the results of the Odyseus over the Powerhouse/ZTPRE combo. I have already spoken to Odyseus and he can make me a special Odyseus with either balance or dual volume controls to adjust for the TT's imbalance.

This would leave me in the position of having to sell the Powerhouse, the ZTPRE and probably all the spare tubes. I imagine I will take a huge hit on that deal, although I would trade most of the items back into Odyseus for the special build.

Did anyone follow all of that? I am not sure I did and I wrote the thing. I think I will have to print this off as a crib sheet for tonights escapades!!

[doctorcilantro]

MaxG,

You are the king of the massive, labrynthian, well-written post. Man, you get deep into it...the pallette swirls!!!!! I can see you working things out in your head as the post developes.....it's like HIFI THERAPY!!!

You'll probably laugh when you read my phono stage post.

FYI, I shared that story about your daughter and the record, dvd etc. with my wife, she was very amused. We're both wondering what it's going to be like...you know, having rugrats running around and I'm think about my poor analog gear after reading that story!

Jon

[Randy Bey]

Max,

FWIW, I lost all interest in Steve Deckert's creations a long time ago.

I would be absolutely dumbfounded if he preamp was any damn good at all.

[dubai2000]

Max,

I suppose when Tony spoke about the EL34 setup masking details he was referring to your preamp, right?

Second question: why do you have a channel imbalance with your TT setup? Are you sure everything is aligned properly?

Just wondering.....

Good luck testing and no matter what the result will be (finacially speaking )....have fun!

Wolfram

[maxg]

Wolfram,

No Tony is refering to the power amp. He feels that the sound of the EL34 is so coloured it will mask the differences between the phono stages.

I cant disagree with him as the sound it certainly VERY different from all the other options. Maybe that is the only true sound and everything else is coloured - but somehow I think not...

As for the cart - it has always been thus. I should send it back to get it checked out and sorted - but it has to go to Japan for that and with my flexibility on the pre (to date) it just hasnt seemed worthwhile. As the volume pots are the click type I have memorized the settings for left and right channel thus

Left : Right

1 : 4

2 : 7

3 : 9

4 : 11

5 : 13

Thereafter plus one on the left is plus 2 on the right. Not a very elegant solution but it works....

[dubai2000]

Max,

I don't want to seem to be in a disagreeing mood, but to say that the EL 34 is a too colourful tube per se I find daring. Obviously I have not heard it in your amp, but in my Marantz (or the Audion I had on loan for a short time) these tubes struck me as rather balanced sounding ( the amount of warmth depending on brand used).

Obviously the two voluume pots in your preamp help to solve the TT situation somehow, but I'd worry about internal effects on the cartridge. This might be (technical) nonsense, but if the Shelter is still covered by warranty, I'd rather have it repaired...after all it's not cheap and you don't want to take any risks, don't you?

Wolfram

[ben.]

I'd tend to agree with Wolfram on that issue. It seems a significant imbalance, and ideally ought to be corrected at the source. This is an ideal world in which we live, is it not?

As far as the pre not performing well with the Yammy, I would initially chalk it up to lack of synergy and try not to let it be worrisome. It performs well with the amps you prefer anyway.

[maxg]

Now stay cool everyone. No-one is saying the EL34 is a coloured tube per say. Merely that in this implementation it is, I should say gloriously so!

I do love what is does to classical - and I have the sound that has me raving back - finally - after all the play.

But, and it is a big but, I heard something else entirely with the Odyseus amp and am trying to find out why. Additonally I want to establish, once and for all, it the coloured sound I have is indeed preferable.

This will take some playing around.

Concurrently I have this doubt as to whether the ZTPRE is performing properly (i.e. even as it was designed to do). I have ordered replacement tubes for it (not easy to find - 6NIP - there aint none over here). I will also play with the innumerable setting options on the pre (well - several) to see what difference if any they make). I thought I had it dialed in to suit my prefs but I think I am going to re-visit that issue.

Hopefully at the end of tonight I will have concluded that I prefer my existing setup and that this new phono stage is a good'un.

Will, of course, let you all know in excruciating detail, of my suffering along the way.

[maxg]

Thanks MD,

Now all I have to do is sell the phono stage as well!!!!

Just out of interest would your amp cope with a 0.5 mV output shelter 901 MC??

A gain of about 65 dB is ideal, but 60 will work - lower than that is problematic...

[NOSValves]

Mark,

If there is a way for you to add stepup for low MC use I would suggest it highly. I think it would be a great add-on or option to your product for low output MC users. I know someday I may venture into the low output MC area having the option to do so with the Blueberry would be a excellant plus IMHO !

Craig