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Amp/Pre-Amp advice needed


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I've been doing a lot of Klipsch Forum reading lately and want to do the RIGHT thing for my Klipsch speakers in setting up the many systems in my new home. Currently my best system is a Yamaha RXV850 Dolby Pro Logic (LCR+rear with 80,80,80,35,35 watts, NOT 5.1) with a pair of Cornwalls for mains and RC7 center. Have several choices for rear configuration. My questions are these:

1. Do a lot of aficianados (sp) use dual systems, one for 2ch stereo listening and another for HT? I probably use each equally. Music is everything from Hard Rock to Jazz to Ambient.

2. Assuming I want to have my best 2ch and HT setup in same room, is it reasonable to do so with a single system?

3. Assuming I will move up to at least Dolby 5.1 (I have a KSW12 already, and will probably get more Corns, Heresy, or RB5 for surrounds), will I be best served by getting a larger, more modern receiver (possibly Yamaha- I know they seem to be frowned upon), or will I be best served in the future by getting separates?

4. For those with separates, either tube or ss amps, what are you using for pre-amps? I would assume the 2-ch, vinyl-loving musical purists in the crowd would want to keep their music analog, ie, NOT put it trough a HT receiver as a preamp, UNLESS there was a way to bypass all the A-D, D-A circuitry. Or are you guys using a very high-tech pre-amp (that I've never seen discussed in this forum) or ??? I would almost never use the various 'room delay' sound effects found on modern HT receivers when listening to music.

I know its a multi-part question, but I value your opinions.

Thanks gang,

Michael

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Sounds like you have a good setup in mind. Does your receiver have pre-outs for the main channel? If not you could look around for a receiver with those options and then you could look around for a tube power amp and for serious 2 channel listening, switch out the surrounds and centre, and just use your receiver as a pre. There's nothing wrong with that.

I think Yamaha in the past has had some criticism in the past because their stated power figures haven't actually measured up to the actual figures all channels driven. But with Klipsch speakers it doesn't matter. Anyway current Yamaha gear has had rave reviews so buy it if you like it. I would keep your 2 channel and home theatre setup as one and spend the money where it counts. Not many of us can afford seperate 2 channel and home theatre setups.

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I want one room for both, too. Here are my observations:

1. RC7 is not the best timbre match for Cornwalls.

2. Center is the biggest problem with 5.1 Heritage...unless you use another Cornwall...vertical Cornwall under a front projection screen would be nice.

3. RPTV are a challenge to sound for reflections and it puts the center too high....I don't recall what you use for a display

4. You can use a pre-amp with passthrough/bypass to a processor. This would allow you to use a tube pre-amp for 2-channel and a pre-pro for HT.

5. MOre expensive pre-pros sound pretty good...HALO, Aragon, Anthem, and up...I'm hoping this will eliminate the need for a 2-channel pre but then I have to give up that tube sound.

6. I have connected an AVR to a 2-channel tube pre-amp's AUX connection running all tubes for 2-channel with a tube amp and using the tube amp for the mains off the AVR....cool for awhile but I'm now going for simple.

I've seen several heritage HT's on this forum.

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Ok, cool advice so far. Yes my current Yammie has pre in-outs, I'm currently using them for 10 band eq for my Cornwalls. Can I assume that whenever I'm NOT using any 'surround' or effects mode that my signal is passing straight through, ie NOT entering the digital domain? THere is a 'tone bypass' button, but I think all it does is bypass the bass/treble controls on the receiver.

If I do use the Yammie as my 'front end' and output the main LR pre-outs to a massive amp for an esoteric 2-channel system, can I use an A/B box so my Corns can serve as mains LR for 2 channel as well as LR for HT setup???

I DO love my Yamaha receivers for their number of inputs, layout, and remote. (even my 850 has a 'record-out' that can also be used as a 'second room' or 'house-feed'. I'm looking at the 2300 or 3300 for my 5.1 setup. Any comments? There seems to be a declining number of receivers with a phono pre-amp section. Is this a problem with separates??

ps. I don't have any problem mixing Corns with RC7. I think the only options that would keep my front channels all Heritage would be a single Corn or perhaps dual Heresies. For my $$, with HT, I prefer the modern technology of the RC7, it's tapered array and smooth dialog delivery. Efficiency-wise, it keeps up with the Corns pretty well and I don't notice the 'timbre' difference. Maybe my ears are shot!!

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I opened up a can of worms by going to a digital 5.1. Word to the wise.

Take the units home to listen before committing!

I was in the same boat as you a couple of years ago, using the RXV750 (smaller than your 850) with 75/25 wpc, prologic receiver. These receivers are not capable of digitizing the music. It is all done in analog.

IMO most of today's receivers sound bright compared to these Yamahas. My first replacement was the Denon 4802. I have nothing good to say about the Denon and will never buy from them again as long as I have klipsch. And I would recommend anyone to stay away from them. It performed as it was supposed to, but the tone was horrendously ear splittingly bright.

From there I went to seperates with the Anthem AVM-20 pre and PVA-5 amp. Better, but still not as warm as the Yamaha.

Next, I purchased a used Lexicon NT512 5 channel amp. Better imaging than anything I had, but still brighter than what I wanted. The tone was about the same as the PVA-5 but with a little more bottem end umph and better imaging.

Next, found some Quicksilver KT-88's at my local dealer. This was the ticket. The warmth I had been missing with new SS but they didn't image so good for me. One of the mono blocks had a potential problem, maybe a cold solder joint. So they went back too.

Finally settled on another tube amp and I've been very happy since. It's not the greatest, but it beats anything I've heard in SS hands down. Better imaging and better tone.

If I was to start over, which I still contemplate, I'd get something like Marks 2 channel pre with HT bypass, a good 2 channel tube amp (VRD?), and a low budget (or used) HT receiver. Run the center and surrounds off the receiver, and the mains off the tube amp.

Short of running two separate systems, this will give you a pretty good HT with 2 channel capabilities that will run circles around most other HT used for music.

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----------------

On 6/29/2004 3:07:17 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

Wouldn't running the mains off a tube amp (or vastly different ss amp) introduce a 'timbre' difference similar to having mismatched speakers?

----------------

Yep.

Ideally you would want to run the same amps on all speakers, or at least across the front three.

My system is made up of compromises. Since I only use my system for HT 15% of the time, it made sense that 85% of the set-up be geared toward 2 channel. Actually, the last 100 hours were made up of 8 hours of movies. Yep, I counted.3.gif

Eventually I plan to use tube amps across the front. You might not want to compromise your system that way, especially if your uses are more 50/50.

Keep in mind, that everything in my previous post is IMO. You may like what I don't and visa versa. Many people like Denons. If you couldn't tell, I don't (just in case there was any doubt 2.gif ). I probably have different expectations for my system than most people. That's why I bolded the part about being able to try things out first, to make sure it fits your expectations.

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Gotta agree with ya on Denons. When I last compared them to Yammies, I couldn't believe that you could not punch in directly to a source (ie, there was an individual button for phono, tape, cd, tv, etc.) Instead you had to push a 'source' button multiple times to scroll through the menu of all available choices. Not only that, but there was a very audible 'CLACK' as some kind of internal relay or ??? did the switching. NO WAY would I buy that. I think the Yammie 850 was also the least expensive piece that had a separate 'record' loop, so (at the time) I could record CD to cassette for the car, while watching a movie in full theatre sound. Yamaha gets my vote, plus they have the best surround modes and best layout of remote.

Thanks for the advice, maybe I'll just buy the 3300 and wait on separates.

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Am I missing something here...?? Mike, your in Dolby pro logic... Get at least Dolby Digital/ DTS / THX (yes I know it is a standard but still get your amp approved if it does not cost more to play those THX discs too true to form) and you will hear a HUGE difference in your surrounds. You only need 5.1 too, about 99% of all movies are in a 5.1 set up too.

Dolby pro logic was good... Dolby Digital (pro logic II) is fantastic!! Now you get a clean, full range, discrete sound source in your surrounds. All 5 separate sounds too sometimes. (Eagles DVD "When Hell Freezes Over" in DTS on the last song has all 5 guys recorded in separate speakers singing to you while your in the center. You can literally turn each one of the voices up or down in real time to hear all of the parts... THAT is cool!! Plays only on a DTS DVD player, with DTS decoding in your pre amp too.)

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THEEEEEERRRREEE AARRRRREEEEE STTAAAAAARRRRRSSSS in the western sky...

You mean that one Rog?

I know, I know. 5.1 will give me discreet rear channels as well as a dedicated sub output. I'm just wondering whether I need to go to separates or just stay with receivers. You see, with KLIPSCH speakers, it takes so little power. In the old days, that was the main reason for going to separates, was to get more watts/channel. How much is really enough these days?

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I would say 75- 100 watts... There seems like a lot of 100WPC receivers out there too. Speakers rated 100 watts...a 100 WPC amp.. looks like a good "fit" to me. And your right, it is perhaps the first .25 of a watt to say 20 watts max of CLEAN power is all that you really need.

In the Klipsch room at the Indy event, Trey had some Cornwalls cranked for hours. (Yes, they worked flawlessly too!) They played them a lot louder than I would care to listen to them for any long length of a period. That said, there is nothing more cool/ fun than an occasional blast of good 1970's Rock N Roll like the group Yes... on a Sat AM, cleaning up/ working around the house. "I'll be your roundabout....."

and yes that one..>>Seven Bridges Road.... Sounds soo cool!!

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I'm running a "dual" system in that my 6-channel Yamaha using the mains pre-out(s) is fed to a McIntosh stack to power Khorns.

For stereo, its the Mc's and Khorns only, and for 6-channel, its the M'cs/Khorns mains and Yammie on the center and rears.

Works quite well and sounds great.

DM

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