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sub in Canada for La Scala bass extension


psg

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The aim is to extend bass for a pair of La Scala speakers in addition to HT

use. I'll be using a h/k avr325 receiver which allows me to send low

frequency signals (< 40 or 60 or 80 Hz) from the main channels to the sub

in addition to the .1 digital output.

In Canada, I'm looking at:

Paradigm PDR-10 (10") C$500

Paradigm PW-2100 (12") C$1000

Velodyne CHT-12 (12") C$750

Velodyne CHT-15 (15") C$1200 (or C$775 shipped, w/ taxes, mail-ordered from the US!)

Mission ms10 (10") C$500

Mission m5as (12") C$1300 (Might be able to get it for $1000)

Klipsch RW10 (10") C$769

Klipsch RW12 (12") C$900 (or a few hundred less, mail-ordered from the US)

I'm unsure whether to go 10 or 12 inch. I've heard that 10 inch models are better musically. So far, I have only briefly heard the Paradigm PDR-10 and PW-2100 on a movie trailer (strangely, the receiver was set to Pro Logic II instead of Dolby Digital; I didn't ask about it). The 10-inch PDR-10 sounded good and the 12-inch PW-2100 was producing annoying bass when you'd think none should be heard. It deserves another listen with a different salesperson (in Dolby Digital).

The bargain so far is the Velodyne CHT-15, and it might keep up with the La

Scala as well! But is it good for music? Opinions anyone?

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I would tend to recommend Paradigm's pw-2200 subwoofer - I have auditioned in store and they are a really good bargain. You should be able to get the pw-2200 for about $ 850 cdn + taxes. ( list $ 1100.00 ) Another good bet would be an rsw-12, your dealer should be able to get this unit out the door for cdn $ 1200 + tax. The velodyne Cht-15 has favorable reviews, although I have not heard that particular unit.

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I second michael's recommendations the PW-2200 is a good canadian sub which I was quoted 875$cnd (650$US) without any negotiations. I found it compared well to the RSW12 esp given the price difference. If you don't mind buying used, I see the PW2200 turn up in local papers well under 500$cnd

Beware of ordering electronics in the US as you will have to add shipping, taxes, duty, and brokerage (quite high with UPS). I have found very few retailers mention the possible costs duty and brokerage.

In any case, your LaScala will benefit greatly from a subwoofer as they roll off quite high... Good luck...

Rob

PS: the PW2100 is the 10" model below the PW2200 with the 12" driver

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Thanks guys,

The local stores (in Rimouski) always quote high prices and don't bargain very much. :-(

It there a Canadian store I can point them to to get them to lower their price?

Still, even if I did manage to get the PW-2200 for C$850, that brings the taxed total to C$977.

This is C$200 more than ordering the Velodyne CHT-15 from the States. This would be a borderfree.com total price (Applicable duties, GST and shipping to the door, all included), so I'm not worried about any hidden extras.

The PW-2200 goes down to 18 Hz at -3dB while the CHT-15 goes down to 23 Hz.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I was out of town yesterday and visited my mother. I borrowed her Paradigm PDR-10 and played with it last night. It works quite well to extend the bass on the La Scalas for music. The Paradigm specs say it goes down to 27 Hz at -3dB but I could not hear _anything_ out of it below 30 Hz from a HT test DVD. I setup the sub with an SPL meter and ended up with the level half-way up. I'm thinking a bigger sub will provide lower frequency extension than the PDR-10, and will keep up and playing the La Scalas at 0dB on the receiver if I ever need to.

So... Any strong advice against getting the Velodyne CHT-15 for $200 less than a PW-2200?

Thanks again!

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As stated above, please check the brokerage fees that UPS charges and add on 15% PST/GST that Canada Customs will collect. Just because the company will ship it up here doesn't mean you won't be stuck with other fees, find out who pays the brokerage fee. On my Scott amp it was $50 plus tax, plus PST/GST.

Also, the Paridigm subs are a deal in Canada, they actually cost more in the US. One of the few times the States gets caught with taxes, duties and all those lovely things.

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Actually PSG mentioned, the retailer ships through www.borderfree.com which, if I recall correctly, is run by CanadaPost to offer a precise cost of duties, shipping, TVQ, TPS, brokerage, etc... up front.

I think the service is a very good idea, as most Canadians have learnt to hate UPS brokerage *cough* extortion *cough* fees. Hopefully it'll catch on...

As for the actual subs, unfortunately I haven't auditioned the CHT series to really be able to give an opinion on it. Check out FabulousFrankie's list of Tom Nousaine test results for a general idea.

Anyone compared these two subs?

Rob

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"So... Any strong advice against getting the Velodyne CHT-15 for $200 less than a PW-2200?"

Yes.

I had one of those (mated to Cornwalls) and sold it within 2 months. It will be too slow for the uber quick LaScala bass....I could never get that sub to sound right in my system. Phase, positioning, crossover adjustments - no amount of playing around with it really helped much. The 150 muddied the issue instead of improving the system.

To be honest, getting a subwoofer to do justice to those LaScalas is an expensive and more difficult task. When looking at my subwoofer options, I discovered that in commercially available subwoofers, it was to be a $2000 (US dollars) job. I ended up using 2 JBL cabinets with 2 15" woofers each to do this (courtesy of the JBL blowout a couple years back). DIY approaches save huge $$ and might be an option for you.

The PW-2200 is a good subwoofer - cleaner than the 150, and certainly worth the extra $$ vs. the 150.

Maybe The Ear (our resident sub expert - also from Canada) will step in here - he is very familiar with that market, and may have more suggestions.

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Thanks guys.

The price of the CHT-15 would be total through borderfree.com. I ordered a h/k avr-325 last winter using the service and was very satisfied. No surprises.

Audible Nectar, you mention the Velodyne "150". Is that the older CT-150 or the current CHT-15? They are similar but not the same, as evidenced by formica's link.

I currently have a Paradigm PDR-10 on loan until Friday and had a Magnat Alpha 20A for a few days. Either of them extend the low end of the La Scalas a bit on stereo music without drawing attention to themselves. I'm hoping the CHT-15 would do the same, extended to still lower bass.

Setting the receiver to send < 80 Hz to the sub didn't leave that much room for error.

So I'm still undecided. There's also the Mission m5as to keep in mind, if my lead on a good price pans out.

Thanks again,

Peter

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"Audible Nectar, you mention the Velodyne "150". Is that the older CT-150 or the current CHT-15? They are similar but not the same, as evidenced by formica's link."

Well, there are slightly different measurements (subs were tested at different times and used different parameters - especially the 20 and 25 hz outputs), but those subs are basically the same. Same driver, same cabinet, same amp, same sound quality.

The original CT-150 had amp problems in the initial runs.....later runs addressed this, as did the later released CHT-15. Let's put it this way: if a customer came to this board and told me that he lost a CT-150 in a house fire and wanted an exact replacement, I would tell him to get a CHT-15.......same sub.

What is critical with subwoofers on horn loaded Heritage Klipsch is SPEED. And speed at low frequency is hard to come by. Most cheaper subs don't have sufficient speed at low output.....this gets very expensive. The ideal? Likely a 15" REL sub (about 2.5 to 3K USD). Now you see why I have no sub on my Belles.....

No matter what you do, look for a return policy, or at least the ability to resell at minimal loss. I tried several approaches before finding good subbage for my Cornwalls, and you may well end up trying a few until you get the proper match.

At this price point, the PW-2200 is a good bet. See also the HSU VTF-3. If you can be patient and save some more pennies, that's even better. If you can do a DIY project on this, that's the best of both worlds - save money by building it yourself while getting excellent performance.

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those subs are basically the same.

Okay. Then I'm disappointed. :-(

What is critical with subwoofers on horn loaded Heritage Klipsch is SPEED. And speed at low frequency is hard to come by. Most cheaper subs don't have sufficient speed at low output.....this gets very expensive. The ideal? Likely a 15" REL sub (about 2.5 to 3K USD). Now you see why I have no sub on my Belles.....

No matter what you do, look for a return policy, or at least the ability to resell at minimal loss. I tried several approaches before finding good subbage for my Cornwalls, and you may well end up trying a few until you get the proper match.

Why is speed harder at low frequencies? It's moving slower after all... Moving more air?

At this price point, the PW-2200 is a good bet. See also the HSU VTF-3.

The Hsu are hard to get in Canada. And it would be easier to negociate a good price locally for Paradigm if I could quote a low price from another store.

If you can do a DIY project on this, that's the best of both worlds - save money by building it yourself while getting excellent performance.

Any recomendations in the DIY arena?

Thanks!

Peter

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psg

I was also considering the cht15 with my lascalas as it has very good reviews, it is supposed to have a servo sensing unit, which the older units didn't have, that detects movement and increases speed to make it recover faster, if I understand it correctly. I guess the question is does that make it fast enough? I am in a position that I can only spend about $500 so if the perfect subs are in the $1500 + range, then thats not an option. There is a claimed authorized on line dealer (One Call.com)with the cht15 for $479.00? less shipping, that is the cheapest that I have found. I will be interested if you get this sub, how it performs, any idea when you will decide?

Jack.

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Hi Jack,

I was looking at the CHT-15 through etronics.com who sell it for US$459.99. It's a borderfree.com associated site, so I can it to Canada easily.

The older CT-150 had "current sensing feedback", said to be less expensive to make than "servo", while the CHT-15 has "Current sensing servo". So perhaps they are different after all. The older CT-150 weights 72 lbs and the CHT-15 weights 83 lbs, so they are not the exact same product.

I can't put C$1500 on a sub either (much less US$1500), and I might well get the CHT-15.

I'm going to see if I can hear one next weekend in Quebec City. I'll hopefully have a better idea then.

Peter

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Hi

I just went through the same scenario. I used to have a Paradigm PS-1000 (10"), it was a great sub when I had my Cedrwin Vega D-9's. BUT, when I I got my KLF 30's, it DID not keep up whatsoever, soI wouldn't recommend going with a 10". I ended going witn the CHT-15. I just plopped it one spot and adjusted it really quick as I just haven't had the time to tinker. I still haven't experienced any real punchiness but the lows blend and sound okay with my 30's. I'm guessing after I play around with the settings and placement it can only get better. I'll keep ya posted on the progress.

If you want to tyr it out I recommend buying it from Future Shop Online. The shipping is free and you get 30 days money back guarantee. I was going to try it and then won the auction. If you like it send it back and order it from the site that you metnioned.

One question, I am going to start by placing the sub in my listening position. Do I actually put it in the lazy boy with the sub and port facing the TV or do I move the lazyboy, put it on the floor and face it several different ways?

Just some info from my purchasing experience, Sorry about the lengthy post, too many coffee's!!!

I bought mine offebay for $400 with about 40' of Monster cable. I was originally going to ship it close to the border, drive a couple hours and pick it up myself to bring it back across border. It was about $75 to ship to bordertown and I was unsure what duty was gonna cost (I figured $50-150). I wish I would have known about that shipping company you mentioned. UPS quoted me at $250US. I ended up driving 6 hours to Pennsylvania and went camping for a weekend. Worked out good as it cost me about $150US for everything and I got a trip out of it.

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Thanks for your post,

I wouldn't feel right ordering from Future Shop knowing I'd be sending it back regardless. Regarding your question, I'd put the sub at the position of your chair (moving the chair). I guess it should face the spot where you'd end up putting the sub.

There's another mail-order possibility, although I don't know how expensive it would be: Adire Audio Rava. Does anyone have an opinion on it?

Thanks

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I listenned to a RW-10 today at a local store. It was very convincing and rock-solid on LFE ("Ice Age" beginning) but I'm unsure about music content. I should have brought a known CD but I was just driving by and dropped in. The bass was a little monotone but that could have been the music itself.

For the price difference with the RW-12, I'd probably go with the RW-12 if it's rated as well on music as the RW-10. That's if I go with Klipsch instead of the other choices. I could get the RW-12 in canada for C$899 + taxes (total of US$775), or mail-order from Brand Namez for US$429 with as-yet unknown shipping and duties which almost certainly would be much less than the Canadian price.

The Velodyne CHT-15 still seems like the killer deal for C$775 shipped to my door...

Peter

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I know where I could get you an oak coloured? RW-12 for $700 CDN and ship it to you for about $40 cdn for shipping. The only catch is that it has a blemish about the size of a pencil eraser on the side. I was prepared to buy it if I didn't win the next auction. It's completely new and in box. The dealer had damaged it after it had been shipped while in the box. It is a very minor flaw and they said it was easier for them to mark down the price then to ship it back to be repaired. Let me know if I can help you out.

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All depends where you are in Canada psg, you have it right in Velodyne, I use a FSR-18 with my KHorn system, but will say I don't think the CHT15 would touch the HGS-X Series 12\15. You have a world class speaker, why compromise on "value"...just a thought...10.gif

The CHT will do, but not enough for you Scalz, not low enough end, the HGS may cost more, but there's the SLAM you want, in audio or video mode IMO.....beautiful subwoofer and it'll last you a "lifetime", as opposed to change up in 2 yrs even the 10"...10.gif

if your in Alberta let me know, I know a reputable Dealer with Klipsch, Velodyne, Paradigm...plus you pay shipping and GST(no PST), he gives pretty good deals, bought all my gear from him...almost..10.gif

and by the way the PWS2200 would die under the force of the Scala's cranked IMO...drowned out... 2.gif

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Thanks for the RW-12 offer. That is indeed a good deal and I wouldn't mind a blemish on the side. But I'm really considering a Hsu STF-3 at this point, for C$875 with taxes and shipping included.

I must admit that the specs are very similar! And I haven't heard either of them either; I'm just guessing based on reviews.

Anyone out there can comment of the RW-12 versus the Hsu STF-3?

Thanks!

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