biamping with a/b channels on receiver?

[tpg]

Could this possibly work? You have two outputs for each front channel... and can run them both direct (no sub). So, if biwire cable was used, wouldn't it be possible to run the tweeter on the a channel and the woofers on the b channel?

Or... since it is inside the same receiver, would it basically not really do any good? Some receivers have the a/b on the same outputs, I suppose... Any thoughts to clear this up? I just had this idea and wondered...

[white_shadow]

It should work.

I have some bi-wire/bi-amp questions myself.

Are the crossovers in bi-wire speakers such as the Reference series by-passed when bi-wired, or do they become separate hi-pass and low-pass crossovers? What would the impedance become?

Are there any specialized amplifiers for bi-wire/bi-amping? I've never seen any. If bi-wiring improves performance and sound how come we don't see amplifiers in the same range (mid-upper) with bi-amping capabilites. Such as a 14.1 receiver instead of a 7.1 or a 14 channel amp instead of a 7 channel amp.

On a side note for those that went to Indiana, did you guys notice whether or not Klipsch bi-wired/bi-amped their speakers?

[tpg]

The crossovers act separately... and I suppose the impedence would remain the same, though I cannot see how exactly. (I would think it would double...)

We don't see any biwire amps probably because of what you mentioned... it would be a 14.1 then... and 14 channels of amp would be a LOT to fit inside of a normal sized receiver... and cooling would be a huge issue. My receiver already gets hotter than I like...

[dmk]

I have a Technics pro-logic receiver, the SA-AX6, that allows you to bi-wire. There is a control for either A or B speakers and a switch that changes the configuration for bi-wire. On the side, there is a bi-level balance control for LF-HF. This reciever was produced in the late 90's and was "digital ready" with inputs for a digital processor.

I am running RF-3IIs in the bi-wire mode and I am very happy

Doug

[dbflash]

it will work, but it really wont sound any different than biwiring using either the a channel or the b channel by themselves.

www.davidmannaudio.com faq

danny

[tpg]

dbflash-

That is what I kind of expected... just wanted a second to my opinion.

[dbflash]

When I first started this madness I thought that was the way you were suppose to biwire.

Then someone posted the link to David Mann and I saw the correct way.

I hooked it up just using "A" and it sounded the same, plus I could use "B" for something else.

Danny

[JohnA]

Actually, it WON'T work.

The A-channel and B-channel connections are NOT seperate amplifiers, but 2 connections to the same amp. You will not be bi-amping, but actually bi-wiring. Some say bi-wiring has its benefits.

To Bi-amp requires 2 seperate amps and a crossover between the pre-amp and power amps that divides the signal into frequency bands.

[tpg]

John-

That is what I concluded after thinking about it and reading a little... I was just wondering if there was a benefit, and since there isn't one, really, I am not gonna bother. BTW- just noticed you are in Chatanooga, TN... I am in Paducah, KY... just a short drive away. You are the first person I have found that is actually near me. heh

[white_shadow]

John Albright,

"Actually, it WON'T work.

The A-channel and B-channel connections are NOT seperate amplifiers, but 2 connections to the same amp. You will not be bi-amping, but actually bi-wiring. Some say bi-wiring has its benefits. To Bi-amp requires 2 seperate amps and a crossover between the pre-amp and power amps that divides the signal into frequency bands."

WRONG!!! It does work, but not in the manner we think it should. Do you think we believe that our amps have reserve amplifiers for the rarely used B's! And somehow that magicallythe A && B, A OR B switch turns on our reserve amplifiers waiting for us to use it. That A && B or A OR B switch changes the loading of the amps, the circuitry, and some might argue the whether or not they become two separate amps.

And by the way Bi-amp does not infer any filters of any sort nor at any stage. It only infers multiple amps, used in conjunction with of a "natural" filtering process. Not to say that filers are not neded.

[lynnm]

John is right aout A + B = Biwiring.

Please explain your comments white_shadow. I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.

[dantfmly]

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On 8/12/2004 8:46:11 PM John Albright wrote:

Actually, it WON'T work.

The A-channel and B-channel connections are NOT seperate amplifiers, but 2 connections to the same amp. You will not be bi-amping, but actually bi-wiring. Some say bi-wiring has its benefits.

To Bi-amp requires 2 seperate amps and a crossover between the pre-amp and power amps that divides the signal into frequency bands.

----------------

to bi-amp you don't have to have a crossover between the pre amp and power amps, you can use the internal crossovers in the speaker. not to say that your way is better. but doing it without the crossover in between will still result in the speaker load being split between each amp (lf/hf). Your way may be better just in the fact that the crossover maybe better then the ones in the speakers. plus each amp will be only "pushing" half the sound if their is a crossover before the amp.

[tpg]

It is my opinion that bi-amping with an electronic crossover is the better way... then the amps only have to drive the frequency range they are being used for. However, you are right... you can bi-amp by still using the internal x-overs. But, the passive x-overs inside the speakers will have more room for errors than the active x-overs due to the parts in them, ie inductors and larger value caps. With the electronic x-overs, you have a couple caps (which you cah get really nice polypropylene, teflon, mica, polystyrene, etc.) and a few resistors (use precision metal film or tantalum, etc.)... and much less room for errors. This is probably why it is the most common way... more "hi-fi" so to speak.

I seem to have opened a sort of arguement here... heh Not my intention... I agree with the A/B channel "bi-amping" only being bi-wiring, though... I had that thought initially, but thought I'd ask. I also agree that bi-wiring is more trouble than it is worth... since it appears as though the sonic benefits are not distinguishable.

[dbflash]

I really didn't read the heading and I'm sorry.

I just saw A/B channels and bi.

I didn't see the amping, I just assumed wiring.

A/B channels hookup would be biwiring NOT amping.

I biwired my speakers (KLF20's) because I had the wire and I have had them in this setup for so long that I like it.

Someday I would like to try biamping, but I need xcrossovers.

Sorry if I led you down the wrong path.

Danny

[tpg]

No, no... definitely not down the wrong path. heh I understood what you meant. I actually have a much better understanding of biwiring and such now... I am just going to keep my speakers wired with a single wire for the time being... no sense in changing something that works to something that will work the same.

[Jay481985]

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Denon-AVR3805_review04.php

[cmdridq]

I've experimented with several different bi-amping and bi-wiring configurations utilizing different kinds of speakers, amplifiers, and source material. I also conducted a listening test while I was working at a high end audio shop, of about 100 of our 'audiophile' customers. The goal was to see how many could actually discern any differences between bi-amped, bi-wired, and normal setups, using a blind hearing test. Make a long story short:

Bi-amping -- In circumstances involving extreme demands on a receiver/amp including factors such as high volume, inefficient speaker design, underpowered or poorly designed amps, high dynamic range of source material, or extremely demanding bass reproduction, bi-amping clearly can save your bacon. Under these conditions, over 80% of our customers could repeatedly and immediately hear a definite improvement in a bi-amped system when compared to a conventional or a bi-wired hookup. It should be noted that under low volume levels and undemanding source material, the bi-amp advantage decreased sharply.

Bi-wiring -- In blind test comparisons, no one could consistently tell the difference between a conventional setup and a bi-wire setup. Interestingly, when listeners knew which setup they were hearing, over 3/4 of them claimed a definite preference for the bi-wire config vs. the regular setup, but they again could not hear any difference in a subsequent blind comparison.

I have intentionally not mentioned any brand or store names because of problems I have had in the past when I told this experience to others. I have been accused of promoting equipment, knocking equipment, being an incompetent nutjob, and all manner of other ridiculous assertions. I did it because I was curious about all the contradictory claims being made about these techniques, many of which seemed lacking a legitimate scientific basis. IMO, bi-wiring has no advantages over a conventional two wire connection, and listening tests confirm this conclusion. But some people are convinced otherwise, just as some people are positive that their system sounds much better using 10 GA speaker cable instead of 12 GA. These are just my opinions, YMMV. I do know that high-end cables and connectors are often the most profitable part of a system sale.

[cmdridq]

Hey TPG.........

I just noticed a thread called 'explain Bi-wire???' in the Home Theater Forum. If you have not seen it, have a look!

[white_shadow]

lynnm, John Albright stated that "it WON'T work," it does work.

Hook up two sets of speakers or two speaker bi-wired to the A/B with A && B setting on. They do work, but are not necessarily bi-amped. Whether or not that configuration can be deemed bi-amped is arguable. But the setup does work.

[JohnA]

white_shadow

"And by the way Bi-amp does not infer any filters of any sort nor at any stage. It only infers multiple amps, used in conjunction with of a "natural" filtering process. Not to say that filers are not neded ."

WRONG!!!

Biamping requires an electronic crossover before each amplifier. Without it each amp gets a full range signal. The advantage of a wider voltage swing (more power) from 2 amps is lost. Your redefining biamping to suit yourself does not make it so. The technique was developed in pro-audio to raise the power applied to the speaker system and to remove the losses of passive crossovers.