D-MAN Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Well, I thought I'd see what the hubbub was all about, so I got a pair of JBL 2404H's from forum member RIGMA on this forum, and hooked them up. I made no changes to the crossovers that I am using (ALK-A). At first blanch, they seemed to definately have the "metal" diaphragm sound. I actually did not like the sound at first, I thought that I had made a mistake not using phenolic diaphragms like the APT-50 which I was used to. The soundstage immediately tightened up, and the imaging was more "there". Different dispersion characteristics than I was used to, but BETTER. One effect that seems to happen is that the midrange driver is driven slightly upwards in frequency noticably. This was an unexpected result. The effect is like the high end "sucks up" more juice from the lower end, if that makes any sense, but that's the effect. The high frequencies are reproduced with more "speed" than I am used to, having previously used a phenolic diaphragm tweeter. You can actually hear the differences between titanium and phenolic in speed. The titanium has a metalic quality to it that is noticable, too, whereas I don't think that one can "hear" a phenolic. Speed is something, though. Now that leads me into "voicing" between the phenolic midrange driver and the titanium tweeter. One is noticably "faster" than the other. That's a problem! However, in an extended listening session, new and heretofore unheard sound(s) came to light from some very familiar cd's, Billy Barber "Lighthouse" (from Flim and the BB's), Linda Rondstat (sp?) "Lush Life", and Fuare and Durufle "Requeim" for examples. Breaths, nuance, and other delightful sounds became apparent that were evidently hidden from me for years. That's something! That's the improvement in a nutshell. Unfortunately, it's noticable that its a titanium diaphram. I hope that eventually goes away, whether its my ears or the driver... I think that the new JBL's have toned down a bit, and I wish that they continue to lose the "metalic edge" that they originally had. I don't know if that is going to happen or not. Also, I don't really know if my ears are simply adjusting to the new sound or whether there is actually some break-in going on, but one or the other of us is adapting, it will need to continue... I will continue to listen to these and come to a conclusion about them which I am currently unable to do. I think that JBL stuff in general is overpriced. The performance increase is definately substantial, but may or may not be worth the price IMO. I will say that there is NO WAY that a stock Klipschorn can compete with one set up with these. It is a SUBSTANTIAL improvement in a lot of areas, like imaging and the upper midrange reproduction (unexpected to be sure!). Here's my quick evaluation, and remember its only MY OPINION. Worth the money: NO Improvement: improved imaging and soundstaging, high frequency reproduction is very much increased, and transients are sparkling and clean, there is no "noise" whatsoever, they are dead quiet when no signal is present Can you get there without the money: probably within 90% (IMO) of the performance of the JBL with a phenolic APT-50 baby-butt at $50 ea. in my estimation, but then I like phenolic and I'm cheap. I may change my mind pending further listening tests. One question that I have is WHAT ABOUT THE MIDRANGE DRIVER? do I have to go with a titanium diaphragm there, too? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 JBL does not make titanium diaphragms for the 2404. If you have an aftermarket titanium diaphragm in yours, you have a problem. JBL does make two different thicknesses of aluminum diaphragms for the 2404. Makes me wonder what you have. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by djk ( M ) on July 09, 2004 at 02:20:17 In Reply to: Re: JBL 075 posted by weltersys on July 08, 2004 at 22:41:41: One reason this tweeter has the rep being "spitty" or "harsh" is that most of them rub. Shimming both the inner and outer horn sections while using a spectrum analyzer takes care of the problem. The shims needed are in the range of 0.002"~0.010". Having said that I would dump 2402s and buy 2405s or 2404s for hi-fi. They all need shims. The 2404 can use either the 2402 or 2405 diaphragm. The 2402 diaphragm is twice as thick as the 2405, and has a peak at 12.8Khz, but handles more power for lower crossover points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 An observation I had: On Dave Brubek's "Take Five" there is a high frequency bell being rung by the drummer. That bell does not exist with a K-77 or T-350 tweeter just a SHHH. The 2404H defininatly goes higher than the OE unit and can be placed inboard, outboard higher or lower to suite your listening space. I bought these small wood boxes at Wally World for about 3 or 4 bucks each. Work nicely and the WAF is good compared to a tweeter with a brace. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Nice report. You'd probably get a much better sound out of those if you used a network built around the driver. http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/The_Audio_Engineering_League.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Interesting read. To my ears the JBLs are not only more extended, but also less harsh than the stock Klipsch tweeters. I am also using them with AL's first crossover and either my hearing isn't what it used to be, or my room is kind , but I do not hear anything unpleasant. On the contrary, solo violin seems to be more balanced than before (less strident....of course talking about the same recording). BTW: Rick, are you talking about 'Take Five' on Brubeck's 'Time Out' album? I am not sure I am spotting a bell, but again, it's probably my ears . Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Yes Wolfram, There is a bell. I just got my Phillips 963SA on Friday and was listening to take five anew last night with the upsampling on and ,,,,there it was! The drummer also rings it on another song the title of which escapes me but it is chimed alone and obvious. It is definately not a cymbal, too clear and strident without frequency smear due to a cymbal's shape and manufacturing process. After breakin and 90 day warrantee is up I'll be modding the 963 similiar to yours. I may try a less expensive cap than the BG at first though as I an CHEASP!! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Rick, congrats on the Philips. I am sure you'll like it even more after the mod...and don't forget to put some modelling clay on the clock (silver -looks a bit like a can of sardines) for a slightly more focused sound! I'll try again to spot the bell (and I do not doubt your hearing!), though I will probly miss it even the second time round . I mean Morello's cymbals are quite shimmering and sound perhaps a bit different, so are we talking about an isolated 'hit'? When does it occur? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 The 2404 is 1db more efficient that the k77. although most people cant detect that small difference you might...So drop it back a db or two. And try again. It would be intresting what diaphrams you have in your 2404,s they are supposed to be aluminum. If you bought them used the outer edge of the diaphrams could have fatigued and are failing. They should be replaced about every 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 Aluminum diaphragm, huh? Well, I'll be! I ASSUMED titanium. I've got approx. 12 hours on them now and they are blending in much better with the midrange. I can no longer hear them as "separate". The harshness is certainly reduced and only becomes apparent on certain recordings. Metal stuff is "accentuated", like mutes on trumpets, brass in general, and of course cymbals, etc. Speed is up, harshness is down, blending is seamless. It may just remain a matter of volume alone. I am beginning to really like them. I think they are going to be keepers... I've thought alot about how to describe the sound now and I've come up with this: they are like putting electrostats on top of the Khorn... No kidding. Imagine a Magneplaner in the corner with dynamics and bass. This is sort of like testing out silver cabling - once in the system they never leave... I may not be able to live without them, now that I have them and can "hear" the possibilities... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Everyone that has done an A/B comparison with them and the K-77 at my house just loves the 2404-H difference. They go real well with the more revealing 290-16K driver and 311-90 horn. I don't have time to say much now that my home computer is down and I'm waiting for my new one to arrive. I'm at work now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 I think that I mounted mine sideways, too boot! Have to fix on that ; looks like the back-lobing changes slightly, but the dispersion is relatively the same as far as I can tell from the JBL documentation from John's website. Maybe there'll be a difference. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 Ok, 16+ Hrs playing time on them. I'm now a believer! When I first got them, I really didn't like them AT ALL. I thought that I had made an expensive mistake. But I'm changing my tune. This is a definitive example of driver break-in. It is not my head... The speed of the entire corner horn has seemingly "picked up". I suppose that the typical reviewer would say something about "rythym" to describe this. I'm ALMOST ready to let them run +1db louder and call it good. They sound like a THX theater does, slightly "hot" on the high end. It's really the same sound. I've been listening for hours on end with no fatigue although they are still slightly bright-ish (or "white-ish" as a stereo buff buddy likes to say). When a cd is recorded "hot" on the high-end, it's pretty much unlistenable. But when it isn't - boy, the speakers disappear into a deep cavernous soundstage much larger than the room. And laser beams of sound come at you from the black space, seemingly from nowhere. Small, fast, precise, pure concentrated laser beams. Edges are drawn precisely, as if it was RIGHT BLOODY THERE (just 20 or 30 feet on the other side of the front wall). "Honey, there's a massed choir in the driveway - could you tell them to move, please..." That's how transients should be, alright. Pretty much like having phantom bullets shot at your head. Very cool! It is so novel to me that I don't want to turn them down. I'm afraid that I'll lose some of the effect. That's why they are still +1db. Could be addiction. I'm impressed. I previously had NO IDEA how much the quality of tweeter had to do with accurate soundstaging and imaging. Transients! Transients! Transients! They are THE most expensive component in the speakers, (thanks to JBL). I would say that they are 50/50 with the crossover quality as to directly impacting the quality of overall sound. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 glad you are learing to like them...though I would think you should pad them a bit and listen for a while to see if you like them after the padding, you should still have the clarity and extension without perhaps that excessive birghtness on some music. I will soon have mine here to play with, I will post my thoughts about the same issues then. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 Tony, I'm sure you'll like them after a break-in period. This is a rather drastic change from spanking new to 16 hours total playing time at "normal" volume. I'd especially like to know if you concur with the break-in (or not) and how long it took, etc. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mafuta Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 When I changed the midhorns in my K horn to JBL 2440 on wooden Iwata horns, I mounted the 2404 sideways because I thought it looked "better"+ according to the radiation pattern it should not matter.I just could not get the integration to gel.Turning it the right way immediately solved the problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 D-Man, I don't really recall any break-in time, but my JBLs were used units anyway. What made a bit of a difference though was the wire used to connect them to the crossover. Try experimenting because you might get a more 'balanced' sound out of them once you hit the 'right cable'. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 27, 2004 Author Share Posted August 27, 2004 Wolfram, I'll check it out! I'll wait a bit to see if they continue to tone down or not. Thanks, DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 If you look down the center of the 2404 the verticle Slot is the diffraction throat Just like the EV-T35 mounted vertically. This starts the sound to propagate to a wide horazontal spread 100 degrees . but the verticle is so good it gives 100 degrees that way too. but its smoother with with the slot verticle & baby cheeks verticle. You can walk around the room and see its pretty even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I told my wife I was going to paint mine pink and put them in the backside of a couple of her old time-out dolls resting against the Khorns. She wasn't amused! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 28, 2004 Share Posted August 28, 2004 I wish one of you folks would build the network John designed to run with these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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