Painful Reality Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I'm looking at replacing my khorns AA crossover for a ALK design. I don't know if someone tried the Extreme Slope design. I've read a few comment about his older design, which seems pretty interesting especially for SET amps. I was wondering if someone could comment on this newer design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I like the idea of extreme slope crossovers, I have been planning to use an electronic extreme slope crossover when I make my tri-amped jbl/altec/klipcshorn project soon. there are reasons to expect rapid roll-off of drivers to improve overall speaker performance. I think there is only one pair of klipschorn ALK extreme crossovers out there. Arytype I think has one, but I also remember he has swapped out mid driver and horns (and maybe the tweeter too). so his experiences may not apply to you. sfogg had a pair installed in cornwalls I think, also hard to know if his comments would apply to k-horns. It seems that once you get bitten by the bug to improve the k-horn you begin to look at the drivers. Just like trannies you can spend a lot or a little, the klipschorn's mid driver and tweeter driver are not expensive units, kinda like a hammond. the jbl 2404H and altec 290+311-90 are kinda pricey, magnaquest-like. So upgrades depend on budget...how much do you want to spend? I am estimating between $1,500 and $3,000 for my full frankenstein version. differences of opinion abound about what to upgrade and what not, some have swapped drivers and left the crossovers untouched, some have swapped drivers and built new crossovers w/o extreme slope, some have played with the crossovers and not touched the drivers. I installed the original ALKs and was pleased with the results. Write me if you want more detail about the crossover issue. warm regards, Tony btw congrats on your new business, maybe you can sell caps, resistors, etc. also to the diy community? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 PR, We heard them at the AR gathering, but didn't ABC them with Bob Crites' & ALKs. Dee had his taps set differently on his ALKs than I do on my ALKs, & IMHO the range I most like accentuated, was less alive than I'm used to. I thought he extreme slope had more mid-range clarity than the ALKs set the way Dee prefers on his system. Not an apples/apples comparison. SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 "Just like trannies you can spend a lot or a little, the klipschorn's mid driver and tweeter driver are not expensive units, kinda like a hammond." Oh Tony, truly you have turned to the darkside. Ya know, the K-horn has a unique, wonderful signature all its own, and I really like them just the way they are. To be perfectly honest, I see no real reason to go to larger drivers and horns unless one has a relatively large room, or simply lives in a world of extremely high SPL listening -- both being cases where the lower distortion levels would be desirable. Even with the somewhat gritty Mylars in my AK-4 networks -- the horns stay clean to near the total output of my QUADS. I think I'll pass on the screechy titanium drivers until I'm desperately bored. Hammond indeed. I thought the bass on Dee's K-horns sounded a little "rubbery" with the ESNs in place. Of course, the K-horns were being pushed by some wierd monoblock SET amps built by some obscure French Canadian. I did light the K-horns up with my QUADs at some point, and it sounded outstanding -- but I don't remember what networks we had in place. Anyone remember? I actually don't know if the ESNs offer constant impedance or not. Kind of Al's "thing", so probably. Hey, you've got a little extra power with those push-pulls you just built -- why not just run some nice Deang Type As with a swamping resistor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 " sfogg had a pair installed in cornwalls I think, also hard to know if his comments would apply to k-horns." I have a pair of the ES600s but not in Cornwalls. They are in my two way LaScalas. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Well dag gone it Shawn -- tell us about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 "I actually don't know if the ESNs offer constant impedance or not. Kind of Al's "thing", so probably." On the ES600s at least they do this. Al built the compensation in as part of the network itself instead of adding a Zobel to it later. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I know I've gone over...BUT, I like the way my klipschorns sound as well, they are the best speakers I have ever owned. Second BUT; I think that better drivers could improve the klipschorns as well, just like better caps and coils can improve a crossover (you know about that!). If I lived in the states I would beg to go to John's or Q-mans digs to hear what they have wrought, I bet it does mark an improvement over standar k-horns, alas, I will not be hearing those babies anytime soon. I would NEVER claim that anyone who has stock klipschorns is missing something. First of all, everyone has different source and amplification components in their systems (and cables but don't get me started on that), second we all have different tastes in music and third we all have different rooms. Given that I would not try to force my choices on anyone else. I do think objectively that Klipschorn parts can be upgraded, both drivers and crossovers, whether the result is worth the trouble is, of course, a matter of individual opinion. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Dean, A few posts about them here: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=41426&forumID=71&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={E2DCB2D5-452F-4123-9082-E403F57717B4} and http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=53469&forumID=68&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={E2DCB2D5-452F-4123-9082-E403F57717B4} What else would you like to know? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Within the respective price point, the stock Khorns are a fine sounding product, and possibly the BEST sound for the money, IMO. But they can be made to sound EVEN BETTER with the introduction of higher quality components. The thing to remember is that the Khorn is a PRODUCT that has a distribution channel and price point and has to compete with a variety of variables in the market place and STILL produce a PROFIT. The components chosen to be part of the Khorn are determined primarily by price considerations, albiet certain performance levels are also included in that decision. But the decision is MAINLY a MARKETING one, rather than a PURELY-PERFORMANCE based one. When one decides that one wants to go with a purely performance-based approach, the Khorn is a very good platform to modify, as PWK mentioned in the past. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Jeff, is the room sucking the life out of your K-Horns? What's the deal with the room and what you're trying to fix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 What I'm waiting for is somebody to really bite the bullet and get some TAD drivers and horns to try instead of those ugly antique Quasimoto ringing JBLs. Tony you once said " I make an obscene amount of money" so I nominate you! It'll only cost you about $8K US for two TAD 4002s and the matching wood horns. Pair them up well with 2405s and wooden "salad bowls". Match them up with custom AL K extreme cut-off networks and you will have it all! Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Watt Dean means by "rubbery" is, that the bass didn't pin him like a nitrous rig to the back of his seat. Hold on if you're going to ride with him, because he does unleash some serious SPLs. I think the Extreme crossovers were still in place with the Quads, but Lee might remember better than I. The most tube power I'd heard with Khorns before that was 25 wpc from my Bogen. It was an exhillerating experience. SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Rick, "instead of those ugly antique Quasimoto ringing JBLs. " Hey now, mind your manors.... they are ugly antique Quasimoto ringing Altecs... not JBLs!!!! They sound good though. My centers 511b is one of the later ones with the factory mods done to it and it hardly rings at all. You pretty much just get a dull thud out of it compared against the ringing of the earlier 511s. Some year I'll have to mod them the same way but it hasn't been a problem so far. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 "Watt Dean means by "rubbery" is, that the bass didn't pin him like a nitrous rig to the back of his seat. Hold on if you're going to ride with him, because he does unleash some serious SPLs." Ah c'mon now, surely that wasn't more than a watt or two. Well, maybe 3.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Sure it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 ---------------- On 10/5/2004 6:45:11 PM D-MAN wrote: Within the respective price point, the stock Khorns are a fine sounding product, and possibly the BEST sound for the money, IMO. For 7500.00 they are far from best sound in that price range, what 7500.00 speakers have you A-B'd them to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Good point -- but it is always apples and oranges isn't it? There is other stuff out there at the price point that sounds as good, but sure doesn't sound like a K-horn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Guys, As of this time, only a few extreme-slope networks have been built. I think only two sets are to forum members (sfogg and arktype). One set went to a fellow using 511b horns with TAD drivers. He also has ES7500 runing Beyma CP25 tweeters. He's qite happy with them (says me!). I just shipped a set to a fellow in Qutar (Middle East). The price will be keeping the quantity low unfortunately. There's a lot of parts required to generate a fast slope! P.S. Yes.. they are VERY constant impedance. The 1 mHy voice coil inductance of the K33 is actually a part of the woofer filter. No Zobel is needed to compensate for it. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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