thebes Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Sounds laughable on the surface but think about it for a minute. We all look to musicans as a sort of arbiter on what sounds good or not, but how would they know? Musicians are always behind, repeat, behind, their instruments, not in front of them. What they hear is different from what we hear. The guitar player is getting his sounds from down around his belly and through his fingers. A classical violinist is hearing his music through the filter of the other violinests in his section and is not hearing the orchestra as a whole. Rock musicians place the speakers in front of them, otherwise they'd go deaf in short order. A vocalist's sound is being made in his/hers throat, brain, lips but not solely his /hers ears. So I guess that leaves us, the listener, or perhaps the sound engineers as the true arbriter of what does, and doesn't sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 No offense, but hogwash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Everyone knows musicians are all deaf ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 I in vited a local band over to listen to a cd they had just cut and the guys were floored. They said they couldn't tell the difference on the cd players in their cars or homes but on the Klipsch they could tell a big difference on which tracks were recorded at which studio. They actually based their decision on which studio to use in the future from that experience pretty cool actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 For amplified performances: The musicians using the in-ear monitor systems do hear a slightly different mix. That is dependent on the brad of the unit. Also if the bass and lead guitarists only have speakers on the side that they are standing, there is a difference than when they have a second speaker and place it on the opposite side from them. But from my viewpoint when I played bass in a band I found 2 things - if you have a good Engineer your monitors would be true. If the musicians used smaller amplifiers, more notably the lead guitarist, and put most through the P.A. I'd hear a different mix. Some groups use a 2 system set up - one for the Audience and a separate for monitors. In that case the skill of the Engineer comes more into play. But in some bands I've worked for, the vocalist wanted to hear only themselves or some lead guitarists want to hear themselves boosted on the monitors. Depends on the Musician preference, sometimes the Engineer or the type of monitoring - - in-ear or floor monitor speaker. Monitor Speakers for live sound tend to have less bass than the actual P.A.. Granted there are Bass, mids and highs in some separate systems. The smaller set ups are closer to either Heresys for some groups, LaScalas for others and separates for even more. But a musician that has been playing for a while will have a good idea of how the mix is sounding. For non-amplified - Orchestra, acoustic, stringed, wood winnds, etc. I feel that they know the exact sound needed. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 ---------------- On 12/2/2004 4:24:26 PM seti wrote: I in vited a local band over to listen to a cd they had just cut and the guys were floored. They said they couldn't tell the difference on the cd players in their cars or homes but on the Klipsch they could tell a big difference on which tracks were recorded at which studio. They actually based their decision on which studio to use in the future from that experience pretty cool actually. ---------------- It amazes me how well Klipsch will show all in playback but few studios use them as any monitors - even Heresys. I've seen a lot of studio monitor set-ups and at times you look at the monitor speakers and you can tell if they specialize in one type/style of music. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 The first time I read this post I let it slide, no one had responded, maybe it would die. A few hours later I decided to respond and found four replies. Beethoven may have become deaf, but even this old drummer is not. Musicians have probably been to more live performances as a listener than any other audiophile who exists. They know what music should sound like from just about any angle you would care to construct. Before I go on any longer, lets just repeat bclarke421, "hogwash." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 ---------------- On 12/2/2004 4:45:38 PM oldtimer wrote: The first time I read this post I let it slide, no one had responded, maybe it would die. A few hours later I decided to respond and found four replies. Beethoven may have become deaf, but even this old drummer is not. Musicians have probably been to more live performances as a listener than any other audiophile who exists. They know what music should sound like from just about any angle you would care to construct. Before I go on any longer, lets just repeat bclarke421, "hogwash." ---------------- My replies are based upon the actual time the band is playing. If just as a listener at a performance, they will be able to say if something should be boosted, moved or if something should be brought down. But in some musicians there is a bias towrsd the instrument that they play. Not all, but enough. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 I was directly replying to the initial topic post, and I agree with your observations(dodger). Most people don't realize the vast amount of performances a musician has attended as a listener, both acoustic and amplified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 ---------------- On 12/2/2004 5:11:23 PM oldtimer wrote: I was directly replying to the initial post, and I agree with your observations(dodger), with the exception of non-amplified performances. I was thinking about the many orchestral, chamber music, wind ensemble, percussion ensemble, individual recitals, etc. that musicians naturally attend as part of their education. ---------------- Aggreed, I edited my initial post to reflect amplified vs non-amplifer needed performances and musicians. My Mother Was an Eastman School of Music trained Classical Violinist and Viola musician. My Father played trumpet and Harmonica. Thanks for noting the the clarification needed. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 LOL Dodger, I just edited my post too. Why don't we get together and call ourselves an institute..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 First let me say that it probably depends on the particular musician. Some musicians are very much into "audio quality". Next, there is the music itself. And I suspect most musicians have a much closer "emotional" reference to their own music/performance than the typical listener does. When this "emotion" comes through more strongly when reproduced on an audio system, as they intended, then to them, its "more accurate". Its also a more valid perspective and frame of reference than talking about "the air around the violin" or "the lack of bite on the horn" because it gets down to talking about conveying the music itself. When you're playback system is reproducing things correctly you'll be surprised how many people (music professionals, laypersons, audiophile or not) no longer use the typical "audiophile lingo" to describe "the sound". They simply talk about the music itself, how its being played, the space its being performed in, etc, as if they were really there, at the live performance. It's a well-known fact that most musicians don't have "high-fidelity" sound reproduction systems. This is most likey due to the unfortunate fact that, for the most part, its a difficult way to make a living. Most are not wealthy enough to afford a new inexpensive car every 6 years, much less anything resembling what any of us would remotely call a "high-end" audio system. I've also read a number research studies on musicians and their lack of enthusiasm for high-end audio. It seems many musicians are able to mentally "fill-in-the-blanks", more so than most other individuals who are not as intimately involved with music production (as opposed to music REproduction). Last but not least, there have been many studies done on what separates the great musicians from the average ones. As it turns out, the one consistent thing that shows up is their ability to extract as much dynamic range from the instrument as possible before the instrument's tone begins to breakup. I find this probably one of, if not thee most important aspect of what also separates Klipsch from most other speaker manufacturers. In fact, after all the decades of audiophiles slamming horn-loaded speakers in general, I find amusing that with the advent of recording media with far greater dynamic range capability, that horn-loaded and more efficient speakers in general are gaining popularity once again. In fact, the half-century old Klipschorn still has more dynamic range capability than 30ips analog tape, direct to disk LP, DVD-A or SACD. Anyone remember the old Klipsch advertisement........."Here today............here tomorrow" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Very well spoken Artto. I feel very fortunate that Klipsch made the Forte's and Forte II's for those of us who are both players and listeners without an unlimited budget. BTW, my newest car is an '88, my Forte II's are '89. How's that for priorities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 2, 2004 Author Share Posted December 2, 2004 The reaction so far is kinda close to what I might have expected. Actually I'm suprised I wasn't laughed out of the forum with what is on the face an outlandish assertion. I was reluctant to post this one becauuse it seemed to me more of a "late night in the dorm room when you were in college and thinking big thoughts about nothing etc." type of question then a real subject. The more I thought about it though... I think Doger's take on the how the muscians get their feedback on what they are doing is very informative, as well as Oldtimer's observation about the fact that most musicians probably hear more music then even we stereo nuts do, almost all of it live. Arto's comments are in a class by themselves-thoughtful and very informative. Obviousoly without musicians we would would have alot of expensive gear with nowhere to go. It just strikes me, though, that we probably perceive the music different then they do and they may not be the ultimate source of guidance in pursuit of audiosa nirvana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 ---------------- On 12/2/2004 8:02:31 PM thebes wrote: Obviously without musicians we would would have alot of expensive gear with nowhere to go. It just strikes me, though, that we probably perceive the music different then they do and they may not be the ultimate source of guidance in pursuit of audiosa nirvana. ---------------- There you are spot on. Most musicians I know care little about the quality of their repro system. I'm to the point where I'm about ready to give the guys in my band some decent speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Unless I'm reading it wrong the topic is....well...I dunno.Musicians make the music we love to hear but yet know nothing of listening?I submit many musicians know more about listening than non musicians.I do understand however that if you are talkin'live performance they obviously can't here in your position.The thing is a good musician is gonna know how it sounds from experience. Lastly,Page,Beck,Clapton,Hendrix,Satriani etc....while some limited by technology figured out what sounded good to me.Its on the sound guys/gals to make it hifi.I may have misinterpreted this post,if so,never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 no offense intended to anyone...... but if you are not a musician, you have no clue as to how a musician listens..... constantly listening to all the other musicians in the group - adjusting the pitch of every note that you are playing so it fits in with the other 90 or so members of the orchestra - maintaining the proper rhythm and tempo by listening and watching the conductor (realizing that you have to play slightly ahead of what you are hearing coming from the other side of the orchestra) - performing in different venues so that the normal listening cues that you are used to are not there - and many more difficult listening situations that musicians do everytime they pick up their instruments.... listening to a stereo (or multichannel) system is child's play compared to how a musician listens all the time.... as to what speakers/equipment musicians own/use...... it has been stated above about the cost..... additionally, it is not so critical to have the best speakers in the world when you get to hear your own music (classical, jazz, etc) on stage every night (or daily in the studio).... i know more than a few musicians who use jbl, peavey, and electrovoice pro audio speakers for their home audio systems (all horn tweeters/midranges with cone woofers).... the detail in the horns is why they do it..... not to mention they got the speakers at some awesome deals..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 "Musicians are always behind, repeat, behind, their instruments, not in front of them. What they hear is different from what we hear. The guitar player is getting his sounds from down around his belly and through his fingers. A classical violinist is hearing his music through the filter of the other violinests in his section and is not hearing the orchestra as a whole. Rock musicians place the speakers in front of them, otherwise they'd go deaf in short order. A vocalist's sound is being made in his/hers throat, brain, lips but not solely his /hers ears." Should mean that the best judge of music and sonics will be a conductor then. He has the best "seat" in the house. Strange that Karajan was such a fan of the original CD.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 ---------------- On 12/3/2004 9:57:06 AM maxg wrote: ...Should mean that the best judge of music and sonics will be a conductor then. He has the best "seat" in the house.... ---------------- he might not have the best "seat" in the house..... but he is the one deciding what the proper balances are..... and as one who spent many years if front of musical groups on the podium - i can attest that it does sound different there than out in the seats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I think that asking a musician about sound is like asking a house painter what color he prefers. Stupid question gets a stupid answer, of course... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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