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Coytee

"and here's the truth in audio"

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I dont agree. I think placement is the biggest thing in true audio quality. Whenever I see the typical, crammed into the bookshelf TV arrangement for what people think is a good (read that expensive and small) stereo system, inevitably the problem is placement. I move the suckers out from the wall, align them with the sweet spot and presto! You have a wonderful sounding system.

I think that speakers are the only bargain in audio, giving you the most bang for the buck. They define how the music is reproduced and how well it sounds like the real thing. I have heard cheap boom-boxes sound quite good on super-sensitive walnut-oiled Cornwall 1s, with B2 crossovers. But have NOT heard great loudspeakers make poor receivers sound better.

A quick punch of my rough budget into an Excel spreadsheet confirms that. My own paltry budget shows that I spent the largest percentage (22%) on my classic Klipsch corner Khorns. But I think the right amplifier makes all the difference in the world with big ole horns. An expensive DVD/CD player can NOT correct what a chintzy solid-state receiver is ruining on the big ole horns, though a good, sweet sounding tube amplifier can make a mediocre player sound wonderful. I spent the next largest percentage (17%) on my flea-powered tube Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour amplifiers, exceeding my annual $500 stereo improvement allowance for their purchase.

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Common Sense Audio is the web site of David Dicks which should had to the list:

"Don't buy my own bass reflex loaded Lowthers enclosures"

From my experience, these speakers are simply the absolute worst single driver enclosure one can find.

The Lowthers can't be driven properly in such a box.

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On 12/25/2004 6:04:11 PM Painful Reality wrote:

Common Sense Audio is the web site of David Dicks which should had to the list:

"Don't buy my own bass reflex loaded Lowthers enclosures"

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That was cold! xmasplus.gif

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On 12/24/2004 5:11:09 PM Erukian wrote:

so what's more important to upgrade?

Using a ipod as your source or using the cheapest amp avaliable.

What would you upgrade first?

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Erukian,

You ask an interesting question. These audio "truths" are still more subjective than one might think. Using some assumptions, for example, that the cheapest amp available would be unsatisfactory, most people might suggest to upgrade the amp before the Ipod source.

However, every system is a real world thing with it's own strengths and weaknesses. For example, if the cheapest amp available was an HK/430 it may well be quite satisfactory in your system. With an Ipod source and HK/430, I'd say you were ready to get some Khorns. 3.gif

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On 12/25/2004 11:56:46 AM DrWho wrote:

With the right equipment, you can entirely get rid of the pre-amp stage in the signal chain.

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If one is speaking of professional equipment, yes.

Also there are the purists that want nothing added.

But you need your Selector switching, volume, on and off. A number of Amplifiers have their volume controls in out of the way places.

Also if you utilize a TT, then you have to add the Cartridge Pre-amp and RIAA Equalization curve.

And as the sonic qualities of CDs and Vinyl pressings of the '80s were quite varied, the ability to have a minimum of bass and treble controls is desired by the Consumer.

In my sig are things worth noting when looking at your room and at other equipment. It is not inclusive as it does not go into a live or a dead room and compensating.

Audio is personal, one can give some percentages regarding how money is spent. But this posted list does not take into account either getting a good deal, then being able to spend a little more on a Component, nor does it factor if you are overcharged.

The only closest thing to an absolute is if you are not deaf and you have money to spend on a system, you may find one that is the one of your dreams or you will keep changing Components until you do.

The used market is not mentioned as it should be, also.

dodger

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Reasonably well thought out, Coytee.

I don't know whether I would be attaching the percentages that you did to the various components in the reproduction chain. But fair comment. When I select a system, I build it around my loudspeakers. This is contrary of course, to that mid '70's madness that placed the source at the top of the music reproduction chain.

Loudspeakers definitely have the most influence over the sound we get in combination with room interaction and placement. None of the other components are influenced to the same degree by the room in which they're placed.

In saying that, you can't just drop any amplifier or loudspeaker into a music system without ensuring it will work in a synergistic fashion with the other components. In my view, there's an abitrary cutoff point where low cost, or poorly designed components, if placed in a system, just won't deliver a signal of sufficient quality to do justice to the money we've spent on our loudspeakers.

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Guest Anonymous

I think that every thing from the record or cd or radio signal all the way to the bitter end of the speaker and the room its in are all equally important to the sound quality. Including all of the wiring... i disagree that one is more important than the other, take an integrated reciever and 1 pair of speakers for example. You have a great set of speakers and a horrible reciever. Those speakers are going to do a great job of reproducing a bad sound. You have a great reciever and a pair of horrible speakers. Those speakers are going to do a bad job of reproducing a good sound. If its all an equal playing field than you should have an equal sound. My 2 cents anyways. This just seems more logical than trying to rate the importance of something.

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On 12/24/2004 10:06:26 AM mdeneen wrote:

"Good morning Mark... btw, in case you did not realize... I'm the one in Knoxville awaiting your package."

==============

Well, in that case, let me revise my comment to: The PREAMP is THE most important element - bar none - in your audio system!

mdeneen

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The preamp is only as good as the component you feed it with, therefore it must be the second most important component.[img src='http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif'>

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On 12/25/2004 6:04:11 PM Painful Reality wrote:

Common Sense Audio is the web site of David Dicks which should had to the list:

"Don't buy my own bass reflex loaded Lowthers enclosures"

From my experience, these speakers are simply the absolute worst single driver enclosure one can find.

The Lowthers can't be driven properly in such a box.

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there's something to be said for bass augmentation, a horn of paradox for sure.

another version of the truth.. (some assembly required)

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On 12/26/2004 1:19:20 PM coda wrote:

there's something to be said for bass augmentation, a horn of paradox for sure.

another version of the truth.. (
)

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You have to remember that Martin King enclosure are not bass reflex but a cross breed between a TL and a quarter wave pipe (as for exemple the Lamhorns are a cross between a quarter wave pipe and an exponential horn).

The reviewer seems to have equate Lowther quality with their tag price which is a big mistake in my experience. All the drivers regardless of their price are of a flimsy manufacture... His preference for the costlier PM2A seems to indicate that for him detail retrieval is the most important thing over accuracy of tone. During my Lowther infatuation, I have played with a lot of Lowther drivers and in my opinion, the DX-2 and DX-3 (with neodyum magnet over Alnico) are my favorite. But after hearing the AER, even those were sold.

My next step in full range single driver is definitively to swap a pair of Fostex and put them in a small reflex box for a 3rd system.

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"My next step in full range single driver is definitively to swap a pair of Fostex and put them in a small reflex box for a 3rd system."

Which type of Fostex? I think they have a range of eight inchers from budget to spendy?

Will this bass reflex box use a port or ports?

If so, one could use a stiff cardboard tube for a port/ports.

Then a guy can shorten the tube as you tune in the enclosure to the driver. Cheap and dirty....

You go as far as making a couple of extra baffles for using different sized drivers, 10", 12"....maybe even making the enclosure a little larger.

A little larger enclosure size seems to help out with tube amplifiers with lowish damping factors.

I can't for the life of me explain why for the reason above, but I am aware that most modern day speaker drivers are tuned into enclosures with SS amplifiers using higher damping factors.

They say that tuning below Fs is a no no.

But I have some cheap Lafayette ten inch woofers, and they all have a Fs of around 50 to 60 Hz.

I have them in 3 foot or so internal volume cabinets, bass-reflex tuned to 35, 36 Hz., and they growl right on down to there.

No real objectionable peaks, and a rather nice tone. A bit on the agressive dark side in the midbass is one bad points I suppose.(they ain't perfect)

I almost went for pair of those Lowthers. Even rapped with Dicks, he was telling me the bass-reflex enclosure were the bee's knees.

Good thing I was broke at the time, and Chorus II's popped up down the road.

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- begin rant -

Following the article's advice, one should just throw in any old amp as long as it cost less than $500.

What a crock. And that alone is enough for me to disregard the entire thing as mindless audio pap.

The traditional concensus is that the speakers are 50% of the overall sound quality. 90% is fictional. Great speakers alone do not make for great sound.

Let's do a simple calculation:

Khorns + crappy electronics = crappy sound

Khorns + good electronics = great sound

How much of that was due to the Khorns, a highly regarded sonic speaker standard?

-end rant -

DM

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On 12/27/2004 1:39:34 PM D-MAN wrote:

Let's do a simple calculation:

Khorns + crappy electronics = crappy sound

Khorns + good electronics = great sound

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There are some that would claim a speaker such that

Speaker + crappy electronics = decent sound

Speaker + good electronics = great sound

Relative to the "great sound" from Bose speakers with good quality upstream component, I have never heard a "crappy sound" come out of them. Granted, you could argue that the "great sound" of the Bose is crappy in comparison to other speakers, there is still a huge wealth of people that feel that it sounds amazing. I am not saying that one exists, but wouldn't you rather have a speaker with the quality of the khorn that can also sound decent with crappy recordings and crappy upstream equipment?

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On 12/27/2004 10:27:40 PM DrWho wrote:

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On 12/27/2004 1:39:34 PM D-MAN wrote:

Let's do a simple calculation:

Khorns + crappy electronics = crappy sound

Khorns + good electronics = great sound

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There are some that would claim a speaker such that

Speaker + crappy electronics = decent sound

Speaker + good electronics = great sound

Relative to the "great sound" from Bose speakers with good quality upstream component, I have never heard a "crappy sound" come out of them. Granted, you could argue that the "great sound" of the Bose is crappy in comparison to other speakers, there is still a huge wealth of people that feel that it sounds amazing. I am not saying that one exists, but wouldn't you rather have a speaker with the quality of the khorn that can also sound decent with crappy recordings and crappy upstream equipment?

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Whether a speaker sounds good or bad is up to the owner period.

One of the points with Klipsch is that they reveal the flaws in the upstream Electronics.

Bose is Bose as Klipsch is Klipsch.

Some argue the Bose is due to matching well in the best output wattage versus efficiency.

If you put garbage into a Klipsch, you'll hear it.

But the recommendations are too stiff, without taking the variables into account. One could have a stolen Krell that he paid $250.00 for.

But we aim for decent sound at a minimum.

To each of us personally.

dodger

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On 12/26/2004 1:44:14 PM Painful Reality wrote:

My next step in full range single driver is definitively to swap a pair of Fostex and put them in a small reflex box for a 3rd system.

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Did you mean try out a Tannoy GRF instead?

Don't see these very often.

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On 12/27/2004 10:27:40 PM DrWho wrote:

I am not saying that one exists, but wouldn't you rather have a speaker with the quality of the khorn that can also sound decent with crappy recordings and crappy upstream equipment?

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Wouldn't we all like to have a pair of those?! Magic speakers! I want those!

DM2.gif

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