Elydaman Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Don't get me wrong, I enjoy 2 channel music. BUT....If anyone has been to a live venue then you must see that the music is arriving from many different points of origin. Speakers for amplified sound, natural instrament, refelected, etc. I can't see how with the leaps in multi channel recording, can a group continue on the premise that the only "true" musical listening configuration is 2 channel. The new high end multi channel recordings available are breathtaking in creating a more ambient listening environment than the Best...and I have Khorns, 2 speaker set ups. I guess my question is that I not so sure OLD SCHOOL two channel is viable in todays recording technology. What is your take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 "I guess my question is that I not so sure OLD SCHOOL two channel is viable in todays recording technology. " Just because the recording is made in two channel doesn't mean it has to be played back in that manor. There are a few good ways of playing back the recording which will take the acoustic queues already in the recording and redirect them to be heard from the listener in the proper directions. Done well it sounds very good. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydaman Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 I agree....2 channel is a fantastic listening medium. I have A/B the same song via 2 channel and then through multi channel format and the soundstage is just terrific. I am one who designed the listening room with complete Klipsch speakers and have never looked back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Good point Shawn (as usual). May I also add that to this date, I've yet to see a multi-channel turntable for us vinyl dinasaurs. With the soundstage and imaging I get from my 2-channel system, it sounds much more like live music to my ears then multi-channel (which I do have on my other system BTW). Edit: Forgot about quad. That didn't seem to work out too well though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 is somebody saying that multi-channel creates abetter 3D sonioc holograph, becuase that is what I ahve been waiting to hear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Best music I heard last week featured an ice machine dropping a big fat noisy load of ice right in the middle of a John Heard bass solo. The whole "creating the sound of live music in your home" idea is pure crap. And what the eff is a "sonic holograph?" JEEEEEEEESUS! I'll bet I hear more "live music" than 95% of forum members and the experience of sitting in your shorts drinking coffee and listening to your killer hi-fi has almost NOTHING in common with hearing music created on the spot. "Sonic holograph" or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Allan, Kinda like watching porno versus "making love"? I mean, they're both great, but different, especially with good coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Basically there are the amplifiers - we'll say bass guitar, alternating leads (2), drums, organ with Leslie. Now that there are the extremely high powered P.A. amplifiers, a number of the guitarists are using smaller amplifiers. Thus those amps outputs are sent through the P.A. via microphone. Drums, cymbals are all mic'd as would be the Leslie and the vocals. P.A. speakers can be in a fan array with the bass sitting onstage or on-floor. Or a left right array with bass the same. So today we actually have more of the sound coming through the P.A. speakers than 10 years ago. In the '60s, '70s you had large guitar amplifier stacks and less coming through the P.A.. So now we have actually either a closer to mono or depending on the Sound Engineer a Stereo-like sound. Different microphones can be panned to left or right or middle. Or they can be panned to sound like a swirl. But compared to years ago there are somewhat fewer points or origins as the P.A. does more of the work. That is a very simplified version. But it still comes to the vast majority of music coming from the front. There are reflections but usually the source is the front and heard through your 2 ears. In the arguments of reflections, we would have to include crowd sounds, walking all of those things that we find distracting. Or we have to depend on the skills of the Engineer - more than we do now. Plus the formats and number of channels. It can be worked out. I've worked multi channel and been somewhat happy. But for my own home I have 2 ears, thus I am content with 2 channel. Anything more does not seem real to me. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 Ironically, I've been reading many articles about the push for surround sound in live concerts now...Just recently, the first all out surround sound event was performed. I'll see if I can find the article. (I read about it on http://www.prosoundweb.com). A lot of the big project churches recently have also been installing surround systems for two purposes: controlling the room acoustics (yes, producing out of phase signals to help reduce the echo and increase intelligibility of the person speaking), and to create ambience (to get that huge cathedral like sound). I wouldn't be surprised to see the stage theatre taking this approach too and creating a 360 degree stage. I know my previous highschool would benefit greatly from this (they already do the 360 stage every xmas concert). When I visited artto's place and listened to his khorns, it was an unreal experience...well maybe i should say real because it seriously felt like i was in the performance hall. However, this feeling always faded instantly when audience noises got into the recording and made me realize that all the sound was coming from the front. If I heard the audience sounds from all around me I think I would have gotten stuck in a permament coma. That said, I think all music listening should be done in multichannel...I just have a hard time leaving the mix in the engineer's hands (and yet I'm one of those recording engineers!) Like Allan, most of my listening is done mixing for live bands and I must say that recordings are rarely ever attempting to imitate the actual live sound...and even when they are, they are so far from capturing the moment that it's almost silly to think of yourself as actually being there. If you really want to have the live concert feel, then find a raw unprocessed recording, drag your system outside, and invite your friends over. I like to think of recorded music more as painting a picture, where the artist makes it look similar to the real live thing, but adds his own flare to express his own emotion (picasso kinda goes a little extreme on his own flare...but you can still see the "realistic" attributes in his drawings). The good recordings are the ones that surround you with the music and the emotion of it...a good live show is one that you're constantly having a blast and having fun. I don't think we're too far from establishing some standards for listening rooms and their acoustics such that the recording engineer can provide the acoustical cues necessary to make it a most convincing playback experience. Whether or not it sounds like real life is up to the engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 here's some links, but i still can't find the particular show I was thinking about: http://www.prosoundweb.com/news/misc/surround.php http://www.prosoundweb.com/news/misc/sur.php http://www.prosoundweb.com/sr/events/aes04/surround.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 With all due respect, the "two ears / two channels" argument just doesn't hold water! When we hear live music, we not only hear the music, we hear the venue, with reflected, delayed sound arriving at our two ears after bouncing off various surfaces in the room. This is what gives different halls their signature sound. I know this is all common knowledge, but to say two channels is all you need to accurately reproduce this is just crazy. True, two channels can do an AMAZINGLY good job of re-creating the essence of the event, because the essence is what is happening in front of us. But to do justice to the hall, the recorded space, 7.1 channels is way better! That said, I'll take well-recorded two-channel over gimmicky, "surrounded by sound" multi-channel any day of the week. I guess this is why I have almost given up on SACD and DVD-A, and mainly listen to two-channel...with 7.1 channel Neo6 processing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I've been to many concerts, and frankly I don't go for the sound quality. I go for the atmosphere and the experience of seeing my favourite artists in the flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 The problem with some attempts at surround sound is that over control by the Engineer. No matter what is said or done, as in the excuses and handing BS article in the link, the Artist(s) are paying you. If they do not like what they hear, even given several listenings, the Engineer is history. Talk to Mick G. who has done some Engineering and also final mixdowns for Streisand. Hours were spent on one song, not because he did not grasp what she wanted, but that she would want a very small alteration. The Engineer also has to work with a Producer at National levels. It can be a bit of fun to watch an argument between Artist and Producer. Reasonings for not having it exactly like you are there for rock include crowd noise, poor acoustics, the band's choice of equipment. To create a listenable piece there is much to be done. With Symphonic, String Quartet, Philharmonic, the goal is to attempt a re-creation within known limits. A three Microphone set up can sound very pleasing. At The Eastman School of Music, they have excellent Recording equipment and the Classes you take run you through the gamut of microphone technique, number of microphones, riding the Board, etc.. New phases have included numerous computer software programs vs exacting the same type of sound through Microphone Selection, Placement and other techniques. Being older, that does play into my choice for home. In Recording a good part is learning what is expected from a Session and then giving it. The true Artists know when they want something changed and it's not. Then if it happens too much, the Engineer is changed. A symmetry develops between Artist, Producer and Studio ( or live Concert) Recording Engineer. That gets you Contracts and requests to come work for an Artist or Group. dodger EDIT: EdwinR brings up a good point, attending to see the Artist. No Recording Engineer could do that. Films of Live Concerts are still mixed for sound. Most "Live Recordings" include an extra microphone to pick up sounds of the crowd. IMHO Too many Engineers have the crowd sounds too high. They become an irritation. End EDIT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I'll refer to an old quote by Montreaux Jazz great ( and Deep Purple engineer) Claude Nobs: If God intended us to listen to quad, he'd have given us FOUR ears." That being said, I believe in the truth that can come from a multi-speaker setup, but also that garbage can come from it as well. Some of today's SACD recordings have been a debacle (Queens 'Night at the Opera' comes to mind) Just as a recording engineer can make a very powerful drum sound from a close-miked, compressed and gated drum kit, so can a pioneer recording engineer create a beautiful recording from three carefully placed mics in a selected environment. There is a certain beauty in a carefully constructed 2-channel space. It's becoming a lost art. I think Allan has it right! In the words of Geddy Lee (Rush) "all this machinery making modern music, and to still be open-hearted". think about it.... Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I wish I could have seen Elvis Presley live... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 ---------------- On 3/22/2005 3:21:32 AM edwinr wrote: I wish I could have seen Elvis Presley live... ---------------- I have that same wish. One other area to expand are the uses of Computer generated figures in film and more synthesized music and also sampling. The pace of photography camera changes, use of non traditional (Violin, Hammond B-3 with a Leslie) instruments seems to take away. To note a comment from another post - with 2 ears or 2 channel reflections, reverberation, decay still take place in your home. When attending most Concerts the music comes from in front and then any interactions take place. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 The simple act of drawing a bow over a cello string creates such a rich sound, full of harmonics, it is difficult to imagine any synthesiser able to compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 I do not know why it is but some of the most surprizingly "real" sonic experiences I have had from my system have been with mono recordings rather than stereo. I have a simply sublime Dvorak Cello recording in mono that quite bewilders me at times. The effect is very much mood related. When I am reclining after a long day and the music is playing I am suddenly struck by the tangibility of a chord, or an instrument. I am talking about that moment when all the hairs stand up on your arms and you think - Jesus - that was real! Whether, in fact, it is anything like reality I have no idea - probably not - it just feels that way. I am not saying this does not happen with stereo - just less often - holography notwithstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 Maybe those who are chasing the space ambience, live effect thing have a different focus. To me its about the music. By that I mean the notes, the chords, the scales, the actual structure of the music - the frequencies, intervals, modes - the way it sounds as music, not as sound itself. I find that mucisians sometimes have poor systems because they hear through the muck and find the musical beauty more abstractly. When someone goes overboard trying to get the live effect or whatever, unless they are an engineer doing serious work, I suspect they be a little tone deaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted March 22, 2005 Share Posted March 22, 2005 ---------------- On 3/22/2005 7:16:04 AM pauln wrote: Maybe those who are chasing the space ambience, live effect thing have a different focus. To me its about the music. By that I mean the notes, the chords, the scales, the actual structure of the music - the frequencies, intervals, modes - the way it sounds as music, not as sound itself. I find that mucisians sometimes have poor systems because they hear through the muck and find the musical beauty more abstractly. When someone goes overboard trying to get the live effect or whatever, unless they are an engineer doing serious work, I suspect they be a little tone deaf. ---------------- Greetings and a Welcome: You found a peace. There's a thread about Vinyl, where I wound up doing a little pontificating about listening to Components or listening to music. With that I can truly say I have been blessed with great friends who introduced me to some great equipment. I have also been able to find equipment that I like. But I really had to come to the point of saying to myself, what is more important, the music, or listening to Components to find what really can't be done: recreate every Instrument's sound with all subtle nuances, every Microphone, Speaker, drum set, voice, breath with our systems. We ask much. We pursue passionately. We miss time listening to the music by listening to the Components. I guess besides my age and what I've been used to, I don't want more than 2 channels in my home. The number of Components then seem to take over - to me. At this point, give me the music and as I've noted with a very good friend, give me "What a Wonderful World" to listen to and to try to remember in daily life. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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