erdric Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 It seems that it might be a worthwhile purchase. However, a couple of reviewers at Amazon suggest that the book is filled with errors. Does anyone here know anything about this? If this one is lousy then are there others that might be a better choice? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964084945/qid=999198928/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/103-0201688-8222272 ------------------ Primary System: Main KG-4 Center KV-3 Rear RS-3 Yamaha HTR-5250 Sony DVP-S560D Panasonic PV-9664 Sony DBS system Studio: Main KG-3 Sony STR-AV920 Pioneer PD-4351 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 I have the book, and I learned quite a bit from it. I was (am?) a total newbie, and I felt the writing was well-suited for my lack of expertise. I find myself referring to it often and writing in the first person far too much. The author discusses the topics in an accessible and thorough manner, and there is plenty of in-depth discussion for those more scientifically inclined. I haven't heard about any alleged errors, but I haven't researched the matter too well. Unless you're ready for an engineering degree, the book should be a great introduction and standard reference for this pathetic hobby. Enjoy! ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 The book is excellent if you are new to "high end" audio. However, keep in mind that Harley (the author) used to be the technical editor / digital equipment reviewer for Stereophile, has written for numerous high end mags, now works at The Absolute Sound, and is a confirmed member of the "Yes it DOES TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!!" camp. That is, he states that amplifiers, preamps, digital cables, digital transports, digital converters, speaker cables, interconnects, vibration isolation products, power conditioners and similar products DO have a sound, that some sound better than others, and he devotes some text to this. The reviewer who claimed that anyone with an engineering background would find errors was probably referring to the belief held by many people that things like speaker cables and digital transports not only do NOT make any difference, so long as they are properly designed and suitable to the task at hand, it is simple to prove mathematically that they CANNOT make a difference. Of course, just because something is wrong doesn't mean it isn't right. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 I, myself, should be cautious, I think I just browsed through the book some time ago, and found it to be Stereophile type hype. But is there another question behind this? Maybe you're looking for a buyers guide to good, and reasonably priced, audio. You might be well served with the "middle of the line" HT receiver from any number of manufacturers and a turn-key 5.1 Reference series from Klipsch. And ordinary cables from Radio Shack. This sort of rig works very well by all reports. As with automobiles, the mid-line product has a lot of bang for the buck. You're not spending for the Cadillac, and you're not stuck with an econobox. It would be money wisely spent if you are in a position to make such an investment. Yeah, it ain't cheap. Unfortunately, written publications seldom present the issues to people this way. The high end is sort of like Paris Vogue. Nice to look at the high end, but the middle of road does much of the same at a fraction of the price. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 Erdric--I'd consider a guide to "high-end" audio about as useful as a guide to astrology or alchemy. "High-end" audio is a dead-end of overpriced, underperforming gear used by nuerotic ninnies. I realized long ago that one could get better sound with any decent electronics and good horn speakers (Klipsch, Altec, JBL, EV; all are good) than with ANY combination of "High-End" gear I ever heard, at any price, and I've heard lots. Get one thing clear, horn speakers are NOT "high-end" and are looked upon by the conventional high-end Nancys as hopelessly outdated and vulgar. But actually horns are far better speakers than the Madisound Catalog drivered compression and distortion generators favored by high-enders,so most hornys scoff at audiophile trends and the nonsense the high-enders espouse. So why even play their game or listen to what they say? They are barking up the wrong tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdric Posted August 31, 2001 Author Share Posted August 31, 2001 William was right that there's another issue that goes along with the original question. I'm kind of in awe of all the people here that really know what they're talking about WRT A/V. Speaker design and repair, how to read and understand specs, using those specs to make informed purchases, what a driver actually does, etc, etc. I know that a lot of this comes from experience but I was looking for a reference book of sorts. One that talks about A/V equipment, use, do's and don'ts, and so on. However, I'm not looking for a newbie book that tells me the main speakers should be in front I didn't think that the 'High-End' part of the title was to be taken so literally. I'm definately not interested in High-End. I see myself in the 1-2.5k receiver market with Klipsch all around. As for other equipment I wouldn't spend more than 1k for each piece (excluding the TV). I think that a 6k DVD player is a tremendous waste of money. As for horn speakers being sneered at by High-End people...you'll have to pry my Klipsch out of my cold, dead hands. Soooo, are there any good reference books out there that cover the things I'm looking for? I don't mind if it means buying more than one book. ------------------ Primary System: Main KG-4 Center KV-3 Rear RS-3 Yamaha HTR-5250 Sony DVP-S560D Panasonic PV-9664 Sony DBS system Studio: Main KG-3 Sony STR-AV920 Pioneer PD-4351 This message has been edited by erdric on 08-31-2001 at 08:16 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 The author actually does not condemn gear at any price; he even identifies the apparent $2000 mark after which the benefits derived from more expensive gear suffer from the effects of diminishing returns. He stresses the importance, using any gear, of factors such as the character of the listening room, speaker placement, etc. I never thought I'd actually be writing apologetics for Harley.... One of the most useful discussions in the book (for me) is the section that discusses the vocabulary reviewers use to describe the differences they perceive between hardwarez. When I tried things like bringing the speakers out from the walls or toeing them in or isolating components, I noticed a difference, but I could not identify it with a well-descriptive word. The book at issue and this board helped quite a bit. Without a consistent, meaningful (useful) vocabulary, it is harder to track and compare the differences we perceive, and we are quagmired in bar-bar-bar-bar-barbarianism.... I don't have a copy of the text before me, but I vaguely recall a discussion of horned speakers. Again, the author does not condemn them, but he does state that many audiophiles (that's us, kids) consider horns too colorful and somewhat harsh. What he means by "colorful" is that horns add a quality to these people's idea of the reference sound; i.e., colorful = different and not faithful to the original. Of course, every piece of equipment will color the sound in some way (perfection is a point -- it cannot be made). The objection identified, and probably adopted, by the author is not that horns color the sound, but that they color it far too much and in a relatively unpleasant manner. I haven't heard enough gear to feel comfortable with any idea of a reference sound, but I HAVE noticed a difference between the highs produced by my RF-3's tweeters and those produced by other technology. What do I think of the difference? I don't know yet; I want to hold off on a decision to move away or stay with horns until I hear at least a mid-range horn and maybe one of the fully horned speakers out there. I consider Harley's discussions of the various options out there for us and of the relevance of gear specifications to be thorough and invaluable. I got a lot from the book, but I think the cover art is stupid. You know, you CAN just read it at Barnes & Noble without buying it.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdric Posted August 31, 2001 Author Share Posted August 31, 2001 >>I never thought I'd actually be writing apologetics for Harley....<< I just want to clarify that I'm not suggesting that the book is poor. I just want to see if it's the right book for what I'm looking for. >>You know, you CAN just read it at Barnes & Noble without buying it....<< Believe me, I've tried. None of the local bookstores have it in stock. I'm just looking for some input before I go to Amazon and make any purchase. ------------------ Primary System: Main KG-4 Center KV-3 Rear RS-3 Yamaha HTR-5250 Sony DVP-S560D Panasonic PV-9664 Sony DBS system Studio: Main KG-3 Sony STR-AV920 Pioneer PD-4351 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 If your main interest is home theater, Harley's book may not be for you. I believe that either he or some other affiliated fellow is supposed to be coming out with a HT guide to high-end. The book at issue concentrates mostly on two-channel stuff, though it does have a limited HT section (I think). ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 yes, but if you buy the book, you will be able to seduce women, as the cover (and Product of the Year award) implies ... http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0801/bestof2001.htm (bottom of the page) ------------------ Cornwalls, Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, Dynaco II, Rotel, KSW200 & LF10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted August 31, 2001 Share Posted August 31, 2001 I like Harleys book very much. It is very comprehensive and useful. He points out that by high-end he does not necessarily mean high-priced. While he presents the theory behind better cables, he urges the reader a number of times to try them out and always be sure they can be returned. My only criticism is that he does not really cover horn speakers; maybe he did in the first edition. However, he seems to cover just about everything else in some depth (558 pages), including 33 pages on Home Theater (he also has a separate book on Home Theaters but he recommended I buy this one, as its more comprehensive and recommended against my buying both!). Always keep in mind where the author is coming from hes associated with audio magazines that depend on advertising revenue but I like that he keeps suggesting everything be auditioned in ones home and compared before finalizing a purchase. As for the two negative reviews on Amazon vs. the other positive ones they dont even hint at what the errors they found are. If there are errors I would like to know what they are? Anyone? HT-1 Klipsch Heritage System (music oriented) Klipschorns w/ ALK crossover upgrades 4 Klipsch LaScalas (surround & rears) Heresy components in custom cabinet /monitor stand (center) Panasonic 32 Monitor W/ component video input 3 Sony CX400 CD changers Sony CX-200 CD Changer MSB Technology Digital Director w/ jitter reduction Nirvis DXS digital controller (auto selection of whatever changer is playing) Nirvis Slink-e computer interface Nirvis jukebox software (downloads net cd info, album covers& lyrics- programs & controls changers searchable for songs, artists, albums). Nirvis CDJ (CD Jukebox Software) Monster 5000 Power Center Sony Viao Laptop Computer Sony S530D DVD Player Sony 798HF VCR Sony XA1ES CD player Sherwood HX-PRO dual cassette deck Dynaco PAS4 stereo preamp W/ Tesla Tube upgrades (also outputs to HT2) Technics SL3300 DD Turntable w/ Shure cartridges Outlaw 1050 6.1 A/V Receiver (Dynaco inputs directly to amp section) Perpetual Technologies P1A Digital Correction Engine (jitter reduction, 16 to 24 bit conversion, future speaker frequency correction, and room acoustic correction ) Perpetual Technologies P3A DAC ( plus 44.1k to 96k CD upsampling) Klipsch KSW-15 sub (for DVD LFEs ) Klipsch LF-10 sub Phillips Pronto TS2000 Programmable Remote Scientific American Explorer 2000 Home Communications Terminal X10 computerized lighting controls Radio Shack Wireless Remote Control Extender Cables: Onix , MSB, Monster, AR., Iced Purple, RS Gold Monster Bi-wire speaker cables.(Khorns) HT#2 Klipsch THX System (movie oriented) 4 Klipsch KT-LCR THX Speakers 4 Klipsch RS-3s (side & rear surround) 2 Klipsch KT-DS THX Surrounds 10 Linaem Tweeters Outlaw 1050 6.1 A/V Receiver (Dynaco inputs directly to amp section) Monster 3000 Power Center Sony X111 ES CD Player Sony 775HF VCR Sony STR-G3 (supplemental amplification for extra speakers) Toshiba 61 High Definition TV Sony NS700 Progressive Scan DVD Toshiba 4205 DVD/ CD Changer Klipsch SW-12II Sub Klipsch LF-10 sub Sony AV2100 remote Scientific American Explorer 2000 Home Communications Terminal X10 Computerized Lighting Vibrapods (vibration isolation) RS Gold , Monster, Iced Purple, AR Cables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 TBrennan your biased opinion is limited probably as limited as your thinking.Overpriced and underperforming,where did you dig this crap out? Sounds to me like you dont know High-End or most audiophiles.I am one and I dont have any disgust towards horn loaded speakers.Your knowledge is as vast as that of a rock.You are the one who barks here. I own Klipsch horn loaded speakers and I am on my way to buy more Klipsch.By the way TBrennan there any MANY audiophiles who use nothing but horn loaded speakers. You have a distorted idea of audiophiles. Sure tell me a cheapo Onkyo,Sony or any reciever is even close to separates with a Bryston,Celeste or Rotel amp.Come on tell us the piss poor reciever has good damping,can drive all speakers with ease.Come on invent some facts.Tell me a ScanSpeak Revelator or Dynauduio Esotar tweeter is not more detailed then any of your so called as good but cheaper ones.Come on lie again. Sure my Krell is NOT worth the money,TO YOU MAYBE.To me it is,and to may Krell owners it is too.I dont give a damn what you think,you can talk about Ramen soup not High-End. You sound like a frustrated owner of some cheap *** gear.Its not my fault you have a defective and damaged hearing.Ask your doctor about Krell/Klipsch hearing aids. Then you may change your mind,your limited and narrow opinion may just do a 180. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 15, 2001 Share Posted September 15, 2001 Oh, Tom ain't wrong. "High-end" audio is a pre-packaged, overpriced and beautifully wrapped consumer product designed to go out the door into anybody's home and sound good, whether they are a tweaking audiophile or not. Some of the new stuff is better in some respects than some of the gear sold years ago, but it is also a lot more expensive. Much of the new stuff is merely sharp engineering squeezing yet an another ounce of performance out of less and less material. I love Klipsch's big old horns for what they do for the price. Not that they are the best of everything under the sun, but that they are the among the very best bargains a tweaking audiophile, who likes their sound, can use to build a decent, musical sounding system around. I love for example, the dynamics of music - the pump of the bass drum pedal, the whack of the tom, the sharp ding of the piano and the real cymbal sizzle, not the slobbery shush of most tweeters. The big old horns have all of that and a "close your eyes, she is there" luscious mid-range that is what stereo dreams are made of. I like the wide 15" woofers that move so little their surrounds are still in good shape after 20 years. I like the pleasant sound big old horns can make with a boom box (page down to November 1999 at http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Speaker/product_8797.shtml). I like the slam that even a modest receiver gives horns. I like the sound stage as large as any room I have ever had. I even like their burly size and sumo weight. And I love the fact that even though I have had them over 15 years, they have never been the weakest link in my music making chain. And even today, when they do need upgrading, there are several modest upgrades available and an online club to help me breathe youthful air into them. Sure, Klipsch isn't state of the art - they are the low cost lines at Sound Advice, and they don't do many of the things that Krell, B&W and Martin-Logans do so well. But big old horns aren't taut BMWs - they're '57 Chevy's. It isnt fair to compare the two. They do, however, capture a magical moment and excite a memory in such a special way that perhaps only an enlightened yoga master can explain it - a special way that at least matches Krell's concrete muscle, B&W's freedom from resonance and M-L's sparkling mid-range. No, Tom ain't wrong. I don't expect my old Klipsch family sedan, with its hodge-podge of grass-roots modifications, to ever beat the sleek rockets sold by audio boutiques today. I do expect to get outside the city limits and open up with a roar and a wind in my face. I am no golden ear. I am just a cheap middle class guy who wants a fast ride of his own. ------------------ horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists This message has been edited by Colin on 09-15-2001 at 10:46 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Colin please read my post If you read well I never bashed Klipsch or horn loaded speakers in it,NEVER. I am an audiophile and I have many Klipsch speakers,and guess what I like the sound that comes out of them.If did not own Klipsch or like Klipsch products I would not be part of this forum. And if you read the post the narrow minded TB postsed you will see he gets convulsions when he hears High-End.Why? Simple he cant stomach the price,that is all. Just too bad. I have Klipsch,Dynaudio and Spendor speakers and each brand has its qualities.For dynamics the Klipsch are king,for natural sound the Spendor and Dynes are my choice. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 I too have been attacked by Mr Brennin. I think maybe he shoots first and thinks later. I have done that too but I realize when I am wrong and say so as soon as I can. How about it Tom? Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Ear---Bold insulting talk, Hell, I don't even know your name. Now I've been with this hobby for 30some years and belonged to several audio and speaker building clubs and spent countless time listening to hi-fis. No I'm not an audiophile, I find the term pompous and effete, call me a hi-fi fan. Anyway my opinions are formed by my years of experience with this hobby. And if you're unaware that horns are considered outre and philistine by the high-end establishment you are woefully uninformed. I hold high-end audio in contempt, it's decadent conspicuous consumption at it's worst and worse it doesn't even work well. This is not the realm of science and hasn't been since the 1930s when WE, RCA and MGM were involved in amplifier and speaker development. It's no accident that people are returning to the basic designs of the 1930s--horn speakers and single-ended 2A3 and 300B amplifiers, they simply sound better than the audio jewelry put out by the high-end manufacturers. There is an entire horn-tube scene going on out there, much of it DIY, and made of people who like me are disgusted with the whole high-end scene and the poor sound it produces. Please tell me why high-end amps need thicker cases than a Miller welding machine does. You talk of Dynaudio Esotars and ScanSpeak Revalators like they're something great, they're just more crummy-sounding, direct-radiating, mud-magnet junk, I've heard them. Note that Dunlavey eschews them and uses a cheap Vifa. If you want to talk tweeters talk the EV T350, The JBL 076, TAD ET-703 and Onken 5000T, those are good tweeters. As for envy, I'm a single guy with a very good income, when I want to waste money I do, it's just that I'd rather waste it on other things than on poor sounding hi-fi. You're free to waste yours any way you please too. What's intersting here is that I never attacked you personally but my attacks on the scam of high-end audio have sent you over the deep end. Maybe you identify to much with what you buy instead of what you are or something like that. I suggest you get out of the house and pick a fight, bully an ironworker or tell your boss to bugger-off. I also suggest you sell the overpriced Krells, buy a nice Doc B 2A3 amp and waste the rest of the money gambling and whoring in Vegas, it's more fun than a Krell and you'll have better sound too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Al K---Wrong about what? What have I ever been wrong about here? Have I ever passed off false information? And don't I quality my preferences as just that? OK, wait---in MY OPINION high-end audio is a scam, a morass of overpriced, bad-sounding junk sold in precious boutiques. MY PREFERENCE is that I'd rather listen mono to a beater 1957 Hollywood A7 driven by a 1955 Knightkit amp (and sometimes I do) than to any high-end rig I've ever heard. OK Al? Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 16, 2001 Share Posted September 16, 2001 Tbrennan, If you don't remember your comments about me, I will not repeat them. I will just assume you have a bad memory as well as a narrow-minded point of view. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 Al---I've a good memory and my views call for no apology. If open-minded means to say that what I think is bad is good, well yes, call me narrow minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 17, 2001 Share Posted September 17, 2001 No.. That is NOT what narrow-minded means. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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