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I thought I had my mind made up.....


texxas guy

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to purchase the SVS 20-39PCi, then along comes the Klipsch Sub-12. I've read some positives here concerning the sub 12. Would I be happy with it over the SVS? I am upgrading from a JBL PSW-1200 (120 watt, long overdue I know!). I would like to stay in the $600 and below range. My room is 12'6" W x 16'L x 10'H. Other equipment is listed below. My listening habits are probably about 80% movies and 20% music, and I do enjoy some serious impact from dvds that offer it.2.gif

Thanks in advance for any input.

Larry

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After hearing the Sub-12 at the pilgrimage I have to say that I am quite impressed. I think klipsch is finally competitive again in the best bang for the buck subwoofer. The older klipsch models were either cheap poor performers or expensive good performers. The Sub-12 is right in the middle with good performance and a cheap price tag. I think in the long run you'll find the sub12 a little lacking in overall maximum output, but they sound oh so nice with good smooth extension, and not a hint of boominess.

The Sub-12 is also cheaper $500 at best buy versus $600 plus shipping for the SVS.

SVS doesn't list the max acoustic output for their subs so it's hard to do a comparision. If it were the same driver in each cabinet, the SVS would naturally dig deeper (150% larger cabinet means about 2 notes lower), but also at the expense of max output. So I'd be willing to bet that the sub12 can play louder, but it just won't go as low the SVS (which will also be quieter). I believe the new klipsch subs have over 2" of linear P-P excursion...does anyone have an idea of what the SVS drivers can do? The logic here is that if the klipsch subs are using better drivers, then the extra cabinet size of the SVS doesn't account to much.

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Get the Sub 12 from Best Buy WITH the extra warranty. Then drive the living hell out of the Sub 12, and use it like you stole it. If it breaks, you get another from Best Buy! You can't go wrong with that......

I'm going with the Sub 12 so I can abuse the crap out of it without worrying about replacing it. A sub is just asking to be abused in my house...........1812, here I come!

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Thanks for the input. I wish Best Buy had a better listening area to demo the Sub-12. I have heard the SVS before and was very impressed, but I would rather introduce the Sub-12 into my Klipsch family if it really can handle the heat. Guess I'll bring along my LFE demo disc to Best Buy and see if they ask me to leave.11.gif

Larry

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On 7/2/2005 5:23:54 PM DrWho wrote:

SVS doesn't list the max acoustic output for their subs so it's hard to do a comparision. If it were the same driver in each cabinet, the SVS would naturally dig deeper (150% larger cabinet means about 2 notes lower), but also at the expense of max output. So I'd be willing to bet that the sub12 can play louder, but it just won't go as low the SVS (which will also be quieter). The logic here is that if the klipsch subs are using better drivers, then the extra cabinet size of the SVS doesn't account to much.

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Actually, it does make some difference. Nousaine (measuring the passive design with a slightly smaller external amplifier than the pci comes with) notes the 20-39 @ 32Hz at 115 and the Klipsch website notes the sub12 @ 30Hz at 117. Testing criteria are probably slightly different, but the results appear similar. Klipsch says bottom end for the sub12 is 24Hz (which means it probably drops off a bit higher than that). The 20-39 drops off just around 20Hz, maybe moderate to 18Hz.

Two different sounds. One smaller with some kick, and one that will shake the room more significantly down low.

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On 7/6/2005 10:51:46 AM texxas guy wrote:

Thanks for the input. I wish Best Buy had a better listening area to demo the Sub-12. I have heard the SVS before and was very impressed, but I would rather introduce the Sub-12 into my Klipsch family if it really can handle the heat. Guess I'll bring along my LFE demo disc to Best Buy and see if they ask me to leave.
11.gif

Larry

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Remember it is going to sound different at your house. First confirm the return policy at Bestbuy. Then when you purchase it and open the box, be very careful, making sure you keep everything as pristine as you can. Demo it for several sessions and then decide. I feel you will be impressed. If not take it back! Good luck 2.gif

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On 7/7/2005 11:14:41 AM CAS wrote:

Actually, it does make some difference. Nousaine (measuring the passive design with a slightly smaller external amplifier than the pci comes with) notes the 20-39 @ 32Hz at 115 and the Klipsch website notes the sub12 @ 30Hz at 117. Testing criteria are probably slightly different, but the results appear similar. Klipsch says bottom end for the sub12 is 24Hz (which means it probably drops off a bit higher than that). The 20-39 drops off just around 20Hz, maybe moderate to 18Hz.

Two different sounds. One smaller with some kick, and one that will shake the room more significantly down low.

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So, just as an example, let's say I am watching the depth charge scene from U-571. From what I understand from what you said, the Sub-12 might be a bit louder, but the SVS would deliver more impact that is felt? Correct me if I am wrong.

tdkamerica....good advice on checking the return policy.

Thanks,

Larry

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On 7/8/2005 11:00:10 AM texxas guy wrote:

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On 7/7/2005 11:14:41 AM CAS wrote:

Actually, it does make some difference. Nousaine (measuring the passive design with a slightly smaller external amplifier than the pci comes with) notes the 20-39 @ 32Hz at 115 and the Klipsch website notes the sub12 @ 30Hz at 117. Testing criteria are probably slightly different, but the results appear similar. Klipsch says bottom end for the sub12 is 24Hz (which means it probably drops off a bit higher than that). The 20-39 drops off just around 20Hz, maybe moderate to 18Hz.

Two different sounds. One smaller with some kick, and one that will shake the room more significantly down low.

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So, just as an example, let's say I am watching the depth charge scene from U-571. From what I understand from what you said, the Sub-12 might be a bit louder, but the SVS would deliver more impact that is felt? Correct me if I am wrong.

tdkamerica....good advice on checking the return policy.

Thanks,

Larry

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I haven't seen the chart on that scene, but if it's heavy into material 25Hz and under then the sub-12 will be a bit quiet while the SVS will rock the house. Not saying one is better. The sub-12 may be a bit louder in the upper frequencies. Haven't heard the sub-12 yet, however...just going by specs at this point. 115 and 117 @ 30Hz, not sure what THD limits used.

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I'll add another vote for the PartsExpress Titanic kit. The 15" Titanic is around $650 shipped, and I will guarantee that it will sound cleaner, and provide more output than either of the subs you're looking at.

At 30Hz and above, it's whole lot of sub. It's extremely clean... so clean that I was able to raise my crossover to 80Hz (using a very sharp slope though). The sub can purr or it can punch. It's a sealed sub in a not-so-large box, so it starts rolling off under 35Hz or so, but it does it very gently... and anechoically I've gotten it to be linear to 25Hz using equalization. In a good room you could probably do an even better job using room gain.

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OK, here is the bottom line. If you want the least expensive Sub (I like inexpensive!) then the Klipsch Sub 12 wins hands down. Both the Titanic and the SVS are more money. On the order of $200 or more more money. So, going for the biggest bang for the buck, the Sub 12 wins. The SVS is basically tied with the Sub 12 as two decibels and a couple of hertz are not worth worrying about. So, go to Best Buy and get one, if you do not have enough bass, then NONE of the subs your looking at will satisfy you. It will also cost much more money to get a lot more output. So, you have to pay a lot more money for more performance than the Sub 12.

I hope I made myself clear.......

Amy, can I have my $20 bucks now?2.gif

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I used to own the pb12-isd which for all intensive purposes is about the same as the 29-39PCi. I ended up returning the subwoofer because it did not give me the kick I wanted. However, the thing was BRUTAL for low frequency reproduction. I think the SVS is a better subwoofer, but its far more expensive once you account for shipping. Thats 650 bucks vs. less than 500 for the sub-12. Best buy was offering it for 450 not that long ago and you can already find it on ebay for 400 or less. I think a more fair comparison would be the PB10 against the Sub-12, but again, they are very different subwoofers with very different goals. I think the sub-12 will give more output above 25hrz than any of the SVS ISD's except the dual driver combo. I have not heard the Sub-12 in a correct environment, but I was impressed with what it did in a crappy one,so I would speculate its got some real potential.

Just to give you lose idea of what it can do. The sub-12 driver has a 0.75" xmax and the ISD-12 driver is closer to 0.6. Granted that says nothing about cabinet construction and if I had say in that, the SVS wins hands down. The PB12-isd is literally twice the weight of the Sub-12, but the sub-12 still moves more air, and its 5" flared port should give you some indication of that.

Hope that helps. I think if I was you, I would buy the sub-12, and if you dont like it, take it back and order the SVS.

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For $50 less you could purchase the pre-made 3cubic foot cabinet from PE, the 500 watt plate amp, but go with the AES AV15 driver instead of the dayton. Or if you want to build your own cabinet, then you can save yourself another $50 or so once you get it finished (and you can build it slightly larger which will enhance the performace).

The performance will be identical between the two drivers, though the AES will work better in larger enclosures than the dayton.

The Sub-12 is still cheaper than the dayton kit and has a lower F3 (24Hz versus 35Hz) and a higher max SPL (117dB versus 115dB).

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I think DrWho just started a flame war, lol.

I dont like to compare DIY vs. Stock because you cant account for labor.

Seriously, It would take me all day to assemble that kit for my first time and I dont make minimum wage. Sure its fun, but if you want to factor in the cost for your own labor, then add that up too!

It really comes down to this: If you want to build it yourself, get a kit. I consider that more of a hobby like building a model car or plane. If you just want a subwoofer, buy a stock one! Saving money is irrelevant.

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On 7/8/2005 5:55:02 PM Spkrdctr wrote:

OK, here is the bottom line. If you want the least expensive Sub (I like inexpensive!) then the Klipsch Sub 12 wins hands down. Both the Titanic and the SVS are more money. On the order of $200 or more more money. So, going for the biggest bang for the buck, the Sub 12 wins. The SVS is basically tied with the Sub 12 as two decibels and a couple of hertz are not worth worrying about. So, go to Best Buy and get one, if you do not have enough bass, then NONE of the subs your looking at will satisfy you. It will also cost much more money to get a lot more output. So, you have to pay a lot more money for more performance than the Sub 12.

I hope I made myself clear.......

Amy, can I have my $20 bucks now?
2.gif

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Just to make it clear, the sub-12 is the least expensive, not the biggest bang for your buck. And it's quite a bit more than a couple Hz. Upper twenties vs teens is a tremendous difference when you take into consideration the fact that subs only have a bandwidth of around 60 audible Hz. When I tune mine to roll off at 25 (which is still good till near 20 and still more capable extension than the sub-12 can accomplish) I lose a great deal of material that was very audibly there before.

No loss of love for the sub-12, just don't like hearing obvious inaccuracies.

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