Arman Posted July 18, 2005 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Hi all, I'm having a hard time deciding on a power conditioner... I bought a Furman RP 8 yesterday, and returned it today for this Tripp Lite: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812120317 Well, I don't understand the EMI/RFI Noise Filter @ 40 dB - does this mean that it only filters up to 40dB? My brother is pushing me to get this Belkin... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812120208#DetailSpecs I saw this one too...http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=178938 What do you guys recommend?!?! -Arman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Any chance a great UPS system with say a cheap furman power stip is really the way to go?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Just a few comments in general... Just about all of the "power conditioners" that everyone keeps discussing and debating are simply expensive noise filters and surge suppressors. Both of which are fine, especially the surge suppression! But I am amazed at the prices one is willing to pay for such limited capabilities! Noise filtering is not an exotic art, despite what the fancy 82 color brochures say! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> A true powerline conditioner does more then this! And what is more devastating to a system, and is also NOT resolved by any of these all to often over-hyped and overpriced units is voltage regulation during brownout/low line voltage conditions. These conditions are experienced either due to regional issues or by on-site issues far more often then realized. So if you folks want to continue in this equivalence of a cable debate, you are more then welcome to do so... But it sure would be nice if some wanted so simply look for a power CONDITIONER that would filter, suppress, and address low voltage concerns and will still satisfy the current demands of a real world system. Oh, and just out of curiosity, how many even know the current capacity of your systems? I think many need to go back and ask some fundamental questions, and then you can start looking for a tool that will actually satisfy the real world conditions that require addressing - regardless of what that fancy brochure says! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripod Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 http://www.brickwall.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 4:46:38 AM tripod wrote: http://www.brickwall.com/ ---------------- Brickwall takes great pains to note the prices and the fact that MOVs can wear out - no life span given. But, as Dragonfyr states they do not condition the power. They provide surge protectio, EMI/RFI filtering, but I don't see any point that notes keeping the current/voltage steady. Brownouts are a problem seldom addressed but can be fatal to Components. So as noted: Surge Protectors with no filtering, Surge Protectors with EMI/RFI Filtering, Line Conditioners which provide a stable constant current with surge protection and EMI/RFI Filtering. And also as noted: MOVs vs other forms of protection. But a question to ask is how long do MOVs last in an average fairly constant current area? And can we now separate Line Conditioners from Surge Protectors with EMI/RFI filtering ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I have read where the Panamax with MOVs will shut down when they wear out...nice to know and I have not read of anyone having this happen unless it would have been catastrophic for the equipment protected by it (the Panamax)...ie: I have never read anyone complain that their Panamax wore out, just that they gave up their life to protect your gear...That was good enough for me. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I do use a APC UPS with surge protector on my AV system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 There seems to be some interest in Metal-oxide varistors (MOVs) are the most widely used device for protecting sensitive electronics from damaging overvoltage transients. Typically, MOVs used in surge protection devices are sacraficial devices and in practic often fail explosively when subjected to sustained steady-state power frequency overvoltages. Traditional MOVs are highly susceptible to damage from sustained/temporary overvoltage conditions. During these overvoltage conditions, MOVs enter a partial conductive state where they absorb the associated energy eventually generating enough heat to force the component to rupture and initiate a short circuit condition. Thermally protected MOV (TPMOV) addresses the inadequacies of the traditional MOV, making this technology a viable consideration. They are inexpensive and readily available. In fact, it is a very easy process to retrofit any or all equipment with them yourslf. The critical factor is simply chosing the correct value of (TP)MOV. Thus they are an important (and well understood) component in surge protection. But they are not the only technology, and surge supression is but a very small part of power conditioning...thus, while the technology is quite interesting, focusing upon the function of MOV type devices and debating the various claims of the various surge supression devices is a tangent which does not actively contribute to the primary goal which is conditioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I'm with you Colin, I LIKE the APC products, having had alot of experience with them ranging from their use with small scale individual units up through the large scale with enterprise scale protection for computer systems. And I can't see anyone needing a diesel Sola! (unless you are running a bank of Crown Macro-techs!!! ;-) One additional thing to be aware of... you want ALL devices to be relative to the same ground! And this means cleaning up your ground loops properly without simply lifting AC grounds! And ALL connective paths must be isolated and protected, including antenna and data lines, asn the leading cause of destructive surges originate not from the AC, but from antenna and data inputs. If folks want detailed information about this process I can provide quite a bit. Just let me know. As proper grounding has been a BIG topic in the last 10 years, especially with the classic pin 1 controversy regarding XLR/balanced connectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstrickland1 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Liebert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 8:54:14 AM wstrickland1 wrote: Liebert ---------------- ????????? To Note: my post was not for debate but for agreement with Dragonfyr on differences. Too many think line conditioning is just stopping a surge and adding the RFI/EMI filters - which may not be enough, chokes may be needed. Perhaps a better term would be Voltage Conditioner with Surge and RFI/EMI Protection and then Surge Protection with RFI/EMI Filtering. The Panamax have proven themselves in the second category. A real question is how many actually need the Steady Voltage Conditioner. Florida, California with the power outages and rolling brownouts/blackouts - definitely. Some areas are stable and that is a luxury compared to some other items. The percent of the power drop has to be noted also when deciding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Brickwall takes great pains to note the prices and the fact that MOVs can wear out - no life span given. ---------------------------------------------------- Just wanted to mention that Brickwalls are not MOV based. Also, while most products do not protect against brownouts, I see no mention of what does. A UPS? Something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I think dodger meant that brickwall sets themselves apart because they are not MOV based by mentioning that MOVs wear out over time...I have never seen how long this timed death is however. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firme Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 12:05:36 PM Shade wrote: Also, while most products do not protect against brownouts, I see no mention of what does. A UPS? Something else? ---------------- UPS definitely info: http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=23 (read the description) APC also offers these: http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15 but, they do not seem to have all the info about them online yet. I would assume that the "AV Power Conditioners with Battery" will be able to provide brownout and sag protection due to the battery, but the description is vague in saying "delivers pure, uninterrupted power". They look prettier than the almost functionally idential product above though (don't know if the above unit has the (EMI/RFI) supression though as the descriptions are written to market the product to the target audience). Addendum: asked APC, the AV Power Conditioners with battery listed in the second link are not available yet, they are due out in the 3rd quarter, however, they WILL have Automatic Voltage Regulations built-in to protect from sags and brownouts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 12:34:00 PM silversport wrote: I think dodger meant that brickwall sets themselves apart because they are not MOV based by mentioning that MOVs wear out over time...I have never seen how long this timed death is however. Bill---------------- TPMOVs do not! But simply debating surge protection strategies misses the point. They all work, and most employ multi-stage techniques. So arguing one component over another is a red herring. The bigger issue is that surge protection is but one small component of power conditioning! And surge protetions and EMI/RF filtering units are not power conditioners!. So, it you want to debate the pros and cons of surge protectors and noise filtering, debate surge protectors and noise filtering, but if you desire to debate power conditioners, debate power conditioners. Power conditioners do more then simply filter and protect against surges. They not only filter and protect against surges, they also provide for the steady supply of current at a regulated voltage. And in many cases this is a more important function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 In the old days we used huge Stabiline AC 120v electronic regulators and they did work for a while but they required more maintenance than a truck full of happy monkeys. Then they had the mechanical regulators which always burned the rotating brush arm out. It's easier and cheaper to regulate DC than AC. Just put 10 foot high capacitors on your amplifiers and you will be cool, and then hang a sign "do not touch". You might have to wait about 6 weeks for all the power to dissipate after shutdown. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shmoe Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 8:52:38 AM dragonfyr wrote: One additional thing to be aware of... you want ALL devices to be relative to the same ground! And this means cleaning up your ground loops properly without simply lifting AC grounds! And ALL connective paths must be isolated and protected, including antenna and data lines, asn the leading cause of destructive surges originate not from the AC, but from antenna and data inputs. If folks want detailed information about this process I can provide quite a bit. Just let me know. As proper grounding has been a BIG topic in the last 10 years, especially with the classic pin 1 controversy regarding XLR/balanced connectors. ---------------- OK, fill me in, I'm definitley interested in this as, I have somekind of problem in my basement. When watching cable down stairs, the picture quality is really bad. It happens to be the longest run from the incoming cable line (100ft)& I do have a amplifier hooked to it, but PQ is still bad. So I wondered about the ground loop issue or noise issues were the problem, but didn't want to spend the big bucks for something that would not help at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 For $213 at CompUSA, this unit by Tripp Lite will do the trick for most. http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2833 Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstrickland1 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 ---------------- On 7/19/2005 10:22:07 AM dodger wrote: ---------------- On 7/19/2005 8:54:14 AM wstrickland1 wrote: Liebert ---------------- ????????? Liebert is a brand of UPS that is used in computer room applications such as medical, government, etc where data and hardware protection is not a luxury but a necessity. I install alot of HVAC systems by Liebert and they are also specialty units as well. I have given the local Rep the specs of my HT and PC system and he is getting a quote from the factory. I am going to try this thing out and will report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Can an amplifier(s) be put on a UPS safely? The UPS's mentioned are rated to about 900 watts. If amps cant be used on a UPS, what can protect one from brownouts? This has me wondering now as brownouts are a problem around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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