Al Klappenberger Posted September 30, 2005 Share Posted September 30, 2005 Guys, Here's the final installment in my extreme-slope crossover family. This is the 500 Hz version and is similar to the 600 and 700 Hz networks. It will be called the ES500T. This one was designed for use with the Trachorn 400 in the Belle or LaScala. It is NOT usable in the Klipshorn. It can be used with any squawker horn and driver that will operate down to 500 Hz safely. This includes the stock K400 and K500 horns or the Altec 511B. The design objective was to give the lowest possible DC loss in the woofer filter along with the sharpest slopes possible with the number of elements used. The 10 dB driver interference window is about 40 Hz. All the inductors on the woofer path are of #12 AWG solid wire. The loss is less than 1 dB at 20 Hz. This makes for a very heavy network. Each weighs about 13 pounds! The design is downloadable from my web site. As with all my networks, I will allow anyone to duplicate them for their own use. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 30, 2005 Author Share Posted September 30, 2005 Guys, Here's the measured performance plots: Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted September 30, 2005 Share Posted September 30, 2005 As always, Al, looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 30, 2005 Author Share Posted September 30, 2005 Dee, Thanks, I am running 3 of these in my Belles 2-way right now. I am using the Rane EQ s to get the droopy JBL 2426h drivers to go up flat to about 12 KHz before they poop out! I will be building up three ES5800 netwroks to go with these later. That will bring the Beyma CP25 tweeter back into action. I am surprised at how nice the Trachorns sound running 500 Hz up. They were not intended for that use. Like any big midrange horns the highs come straight out though. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Al, I'm curious why the 2336h drivers drop off so early. I thought they didn't do that until about 15k. Is it just the interaction with your horns? Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 Bruce, I'm using JBL 2426h drivers. They do the same roll off on the Altec 811b as on the Trachorn. They make a nice squawker, but as a full-range driver they stink! That's why I am replacing the networks in my Belles with 500 and 5800 Hz crossovers. I had networks crossing at 700 and 7500 Hz while using the Altec 811 horns. The drivers start to dip just above 6000. Maybe the JBLs need a JBL horn to work right. I don't know. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 why not the Altec 902 ...??? Edit .... 500 hz x-over, is why...[8-|] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 don't forget , Al .... jbl gets a lotta HF extension, from these kinda drivers, by padding down the Mid's ...starting with say, 104 dB/w/m driver eff, ending after equalization ...maybe 93 db that's why the speakers, as a system, are rated like 93 dB eff ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 Duke, I just looked at the spec sheet for the Altec 902 driver. It claims that it can be used down to 500 Hz with a power rating of 15W. I have test this driver and it really does go out to 20 KHz! The JBL 2426 would definity need to be equaized to work in a 2-way system. If JBL did that it would cut the levels down a lot. I am using an active EQ so I can boost the highs rather then cut the lows. I think boosting is safe up high. There's not much chance of overloading anything up at tweeter frequencies. For my personal situation, I don't really care though. I am about half way done building a set of ES5800 netwroks to put the Beyma tweeter back into operation. I won't need to boost anything with them taking care of the highs! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Al, "I just looked at the spec sheet for the Altec 902 driver. It claims that it can be used down to 500 Hz with a power rating of 15W." And that is with a second order high pass used in a professional setting. At home with an ES at 500hz they shouldn't have any problems at all. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 i was thinkin' .... you'd be lookin' for more like a 30w rating at that freq, Al.... is the driver ok at that level, Shawn ...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Al, The Altec 808s are rated at 30 watts from 500-20KHz at 104db@ 1watt. If you want to play with a pair, let me know. http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/components/808b.htm Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 2, 2005 Author Share Posted October 2, 2005 Guys, I did a little thinking about the power handeling question. I don't think there is any problem at all. I have measured my Belles to be virtually 100 dB SPL at 1 meter with 2.82V applied (sensitivity standard). Previous measurements with my JBL driver on a horn with no networks showed them to be over 110 dB SPL. I am running them at transformer taps 1-0. That's -12 dB. Even if you assumed the driver can only handle 10W, 12 dB attenuation means 158W input to the transformer could be tollerated. The swamping resistor is only 10W. This means you couldn't blow the driver no matter what you did! You would smoke the swamping resistor first! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 "is the driver ok at that level, Shawn ...??" In a home setting I'm sure it would be. I ran my 902s on Al's Type A networks for awhile. That is first order at 400hz and they were fine. I played them up to THX Reference Level like that. That is 105dB per speaker at the listening position so they were probably doing 108-110dB at 1m away. I had the loading caps in the drivers then. With the ES600t I've gone higher up then that too without the loading caps in the drivers. Never heard them complain. And this is with the lighter style aluminum diaphragms that were in the 902-8A drivers. The normal aluminum drivers are supposed to be a bit tougher too. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Rick, ", The Altec 808s are rated at 30 watts from 500-20KHz at 104db@ 1watt. If you want to play with a pair, let me know." Have you ever measured yours? The diaphragm in the 808s is said to not have quite the top end of the aluminum diaphragms. Depending upon if the 808s are 'A' or 'B' series they would either have the earlier style phase plug or the later Tangerine phase plugs in them which is also supposed to effect HF performance. It would be interesting to see how they compare. If you would like to compare the two you are welcome to borrow some 902s. When I finally get the bi-amp/tri-amp setup working if you want to try the ES600T on your Belle's or the LaScala you are welcome to try that too. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Al, "Previous measurements with my JBL driver on a horn with no networks showed them to be over 110 dB SPL. I am running them at transformer taps 1-0. That's -12 dB. That is more sensitive then the 902s. I was running them at about -7dB attenuation. (4 and 2 maybe?) The 288s, which are more sensitve then the 902s, are currently running at about -10dB attenuation. They are rated at right around 109-110 dB/w/m on the horn I am using. "Even if you assumed the driver can only handle 10W, 12 dB attenuation means 158W input to the transformer could be tollerated. The swamping resistor is only 10W. This means you couldn't blow the driver no matter what you did! You would smoke the swamping resistor first!" Could the transformer even handle that much power? With the lower sensitivity of the Altec's it would mean it would take less power to hit 10w on them... closer to half that level. However that is still 75ish watts of power to the transformer which is after the high pass in the crossover. IOW, the input wattage to the crossover itself would likely be at a much higher level since a large portion of the power is in the bass. BTW, the power rating on the new Great Plains small format Altec clones with aluminum diaphrags is 10w. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 isn't the 50/50 point of power spectrum split ....at like 5oo hz .....?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Al, The Altec 808s are rated at 30 watts from 500-20KHz at 104db@ 1watt. If you want to play with a pair, let me know. http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/specs/components/808b.htm Rick they may be Rated at that, Rick ...... but there's No Way an 808 goes more than , say 15khz......... esp. w/ work hardened diaphrams .......[:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 "isn't the 50/50 point of power spectrum split ....at like 5oo hz .....??" It will vary of course depending upon the music but I think I have usually heard it lower then that point. Even if it was at 500hz that would mean Al's numbers would basically need to be doubled for what the amp would be putting out before 10w makes it to the high frequency driver. In a home system I just can't see the low power handling of the driver as being an issue. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 2, 2005 Author Share Posted October 2, 2005 Shawn, I just looked at the specs on the JBL 2426h. It confirms 110 dB on one horn (JBL 2370A) and 107 on another (jbl 2344a). The response plot is shown for the horn with the 110 dB level and looks to only be donw about 3 dB at 15 KHz. The 110 dB I measured was on the Trachorn. It's kind of a uselsess number considering it's at it's low frequency end. The response drops steadily down as you go up in frequency. My curve showed it a good 15 dB down at 15 KHz both on the Trachorn and on the Altec 811b horns. I think high efficiency is what the thing was designed for. The Altec 902 looks like it was made good response instead! I have tested the UTC 3619 transfomer at a continuous 50W sine wave power and it didn't even get warm. My guess is that it would take 100W without any problem. It's the 10W swamping resistor that wouldn't survive! I think any music that has 10W of power in the squawker's frequency range is going to also have a huge amount of bass energy well beyond normal listening levels. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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