HDCD Is Incredible--Will it last?

[soundog]

I use the regular Sony changers with optical output as the internal DAC leaves a lot to be desired. (By the way NEVER move any of these changers with CDs in place - they fall out of tiny slots very easily) Jitter reduction corrects any timing problems in the digital stream and optical outputs go to an external DAC. I would expect that the Sony ES changers would offer internal solutions to both of these problems. If you use computerized CD management why do you need the 450 vs the identical and less expensive 400 (450 w/o fancy remote)?

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This message has been edited by soundog on 11-13-2001 at 06:56 AM

[Lone Palm]

I've got some CDs with the HDCD logo. I'm totally ignorant of this medium. Can someone explain it, and do I need special gear for it?

[maxg]

No you do not need any special equipment to play HDCD (a major benefit of the format) but to get the best out of it you should have an HDCD player.

From my limited experience with the format they do sound better than plain vanilla CD's but not as good as XRCD's.

Since my previous postings to this thread I have now bought the Sony NS900 SACD player and about 20 SACD titles. The quality of the medium is outstanding - truely indistinguishable from vinyl in 2 channel recordings with the added advantage of multi-channel capability. There is no comparison between this and HDCD although I am still not convinced SACD will take off.

Come to that I still have not even heard DVD/a. Maybe it is a sign that at the local high end audio show there was not one in operation, or even on view whilst there were several SACD's playing mighty stuff.

[Cruzer]

What I also like about HDCD is the fact that it does not cost extra and sounds better. I have the Denon DCM-370 CD Player and when playing differents CDs at ramdon, I can really tell when one is HDCD encoded, since I have to reach for the remote to turn the volume down....

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Cruzer

[tasos]

I am a big fan of HDCD - I think it will survive as a Red-Book format, but the PMD-200 does not have much future without the success of DVD-A, which I think will lose the war to SACD.

Contrary to what's claimed, there are tons of HDCD encoded disks, and you can see them on www.hdcd.com.

Many have questioned the value-add of HDCD, even the technology. I happen to have two copies of Dave Brubeck's Take Five on Columbia - one of them is HDCD encoded, the other one isn't; they are both re-issues from the original analog tapes. The differences are staggering, and good enough reason for me to give HDCD the thumbs up.

Some will argue it's because the PMD-100 chip degrades the pure red-book version. I don't think so, and have played the non-HDCD version on top non-HDCD D/A converters (e.g. dCS), next to my Classe DAC-1 playing the HDCD-encoded version. The differences are still staggering.

[maxg]

Interesting analysis. I have found the reverse with the one CD that I have in both CD and HDCD format, namely Dire Straits Brothers in Arms.

My original copy was purchased in 1985. I understand this was the very first AAD recording produced on a CD. The quality of that recording is amazingly good and it was, for many years, the best quality CD recording I owned (XRCD overtook it although to date I have not found an XRCD version of Brothers in Arms, nor, for that matter an SACD version which I would really like).

The HDCD version I tried (from a friend) was broadly similar in quality probably but I actually prefered the original.

Not to denigrate HDCD in any way. The Mark Knopfler "Sailing to philadelphia" is superb on HDCD.

[Mike Lindsey]

Well Max, you're in luck... Elusive Disc must have just added it. Insert this (JVCXRH5483572) in the search box and it should go right to it.

I just ordered 3 XRCD's on your recommendation from here. John Coltrane, Patricia Barber and a Latin Guitarist/Cello combination (sounds interesting)...

Thanks,

Mike

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My Music Systems

This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 11-15-2001 at 08:42 AM

[Chris Garrett]

Mike,

I've been testing the Cornwalls out with JVC and XRCD-2 discs and they generally are lovely recordings. However, some of these discs bought through Amazon and local retailers are above $26 and as high as $35 per title. IMO, the XRCD, XRCD-2s and JVC K2 Japanese masters show that on a nice Redbook playback system, CDs can sound quite nice when attention to detail is rendered throughout the mastering process.

When you hear some of the Japanese SACDs on a nice SACD player, you'll realize that there IS 'better' than Redbook.

To the original poster, I don't have any HDCDs but from what I've read, a lot of the differences are due to the players attenuating the CD signal by 6db, thereby making the HDCDs play louder and as PsychoAccoustitians will tell you, many people perceive something as 'better' sounding when all it is is actually LOUDER. This is why level matching is so critical when evaluating gear.

Chris

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My Systems

[boomer9911]

I have never heard hdcd, but listened to an interview with Stevie Nicks of Fleewtwood Mac, who are releasing "Rumours" in 5.1 and swears by it. She states there are sounds they actually never heard while recording that are visible in 5.1. True "pick" depth on chords etc.

Haven't heard it, but sounds interesting no less.

[soundog]

I recently purchased the Sony CE775 multi-channel SACD changer for about $300. Along with a variety of SACDs. One was Blood, Sweat & Tear early album of the same name in stereo which I have compared to a regular CD version and an LP I have. The SACD is better than the CD and sounds like the LP w/o surface noise. However when I play the same CD through my Perpetual Technologies P1A(correction Engine 16/44 to 24/96) and P3A ( Stereophile DAC component of the year) it sounds better than both the LP and SACD. Of course, the SACD is being processed through the CE775 internal DAC. My guess is that if the SACD was played through a multichannel DAC as good as the P3A, it would sound better than the P1A enhanced CD but I dont think by much. Good news since I have over 1000CDs. However, the multi-channel SACD which, of course use the same CE775 internal DAC, exhibit a presence (center channel effect?), depth and fullness (surround effect?) greater than the CD. I believe that this is from the additional channels with the center channel clearly present but the rears hardly noticeable (but I believe contributing to the depth and fullness). These multichannel SACDs through an improved DAC would sound noticeably different than stereo SACDs or enhanced CDs. Whether these added dimensions will be desirable over time is a question in my mind. I think I felt more comfortable listing in stereo through my Klipschorns (of course, this is what Im most used to). I did like the multichannel SACDs better than stereo through my Klipsch THX system. Of course, unlike the Khorns, the THX system is less revealing of differences in DAC quality. I must add, however, that while the internal DAC in the CE775 is not a match for the P3A it is quite a bit better than the DAC s in my SONY changer. I think the CE775 is a very good buy. Obviously, an attempt by Sony to popularize their SACD format, which they have a lot riding on. I think the SACD format will win out over DVD-A because of the new hybrid SACDs that can be played on regular CD players and I predict will replace standard CDs and KO HDCDs (24 vs 20 bit). But how can one add an external DAC with no digital output for the SACD option?

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Soundog's HT Systems

[maxg]

"But how can one add an external DAC with no digital output for the SACD option?"

You cant. It has been bothering me for a while too. With SACD you have no choice but to use the standard built in DAC.

Know why?? Because they are attempting to stop people making perfect digital copies of SACD's - same for DVDa's I hear.

[Ray Garrison]

There are a few SACD, uh, "players" ( ) out there that DO provide a digital datastream of the DSD data that can be routed into a separate D/A box - the only problem is that these are PROPRIETARY data links, and only work from the the manufacturers dedicated SACD compatible transport into that same manufacturers dedicated SACD D/A box. Accuphase makes one of these things, and I know Sharp was working on one, don't know if it's out yet, and Burmeister might have one. You can't take the "SACD digital out" from one of these boxes and run it into anyone else's D/A box, as MAXG is corrent, the industry is trying to prevent cloning of SACD discs.

Why the manufacturer wouldn't simply put the D/A stuff into the same box as the transport, making an SACD player, is due to (a) the manufacturer feels that separating the transport functions from the D/A functions makes for better sound, or ( the manufacturer is forward thinking and believes that allowing upgrades to the D/A converter without having to replace the transport will be beneficial to the end user, or © they can sell more "high end" mucho bucko boxes this way because the high end community places higher perceived value on a two box solution rather than a one box solution.

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