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vibrapods, worth considering???


33klfan

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What's the pick up with these, how do they actually make the sound better. What are the cones and how do they work? Anybody experience with these. For most people they seem to make a difference. Seems wild that something like this can make a noticeable difference like tighter bass, and wider soundstage. I am mainly wondering about the cones and how they work. Are they placed underneath the surface of like a cd player. Any help here would be appreciated. Thanks.

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You can use the cones and pods alone or combine them. Does it work? I guess that is up to you. I think that isolating your equipment can't hurt and unless you are in the mood for a DIY project, it won't get any cheaper.

I use both under my cd player. That is how I set it up originally, so I never really did a pre and post pod comparison.

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here's a task for you...

turn on some music and then pick up your equipment and shake the crap out of it like you're trying to salt your floor which you will be cooking later over the BBQ [;)] Do you notice any change whatsoever in the sound? I suppose some CD players won't like being shaked too much, but the point I'm trying to make is that you're wasting your money. Perhaps you should just shake your cables around.

Anyways, I'm sure there will be someone who claims a huge improvement in sound and I could get into all the psychological factors in play, but let's not go there because we don't need to. For the same money spent, there are all sorts of other improvements that can be made to your system which will have much LARGER results.

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I know one thing they do. I put some under my cdp and amp a few years ago and after a few weeks when I lifted both pieces off the wooden rack (Contours, pictured below) for cleaning, the VibraPods were stuck to the shelf. After removing the VibraPods there were deep rings in the wood finish. Needless to say, the VibraPods are sitting out in my garage now. Want them?

Good Luck,

Chris

This is the same model as mine. However mine have black tubing and cherry shelves.

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Dr. Who that is a whole lot of conclusion with no explanation. I will certainly allow for the possibility that isolation devices do not do anything, but just saying it does not make it so.

BTW, shaking your cd player is bad..."jitter."[:)]

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If you have some equipment with microphonic tubes, putting these isolators under them can help. It worked for me on the Rogue Magnum which has the inherently microphinic 6sn7.

When I had the Rega P3 in the mix, I put isolators under the feet, this made a very pleasent difference in the performace of the table in terms of better imaging, there may have been some other attributes but they escape me at the moment. YMMV.

Tom

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lol, the explanation was supposed to be achieved when performing the experiment...

btw, jitter is the result of timing issues when a digital signal is being converted into analog. Most devices implement the use of a quartz crystal whose vibrations are very constant and can easily be measured, which then get turned into a timing signal that drives the timing of the DAC (digital to analog converter). The only valid argument then for jitter reduction by isolation of the player is that it reduces changes in the detected vibrations of the quartz crystal. HOWEVER, the vibrations of the quartz crystal are on the order of GHz (gigahertz) whereas the vibrations from our speakers are more on the order of 100Hz. If you do the math/physics, this means that the quartz crystal is providing a positive voltage every 0.0000005 seconds. Our 100Hz vibration will then modulate this vibration in the positive direction every 0.005. This essentially means that you will have 10,000 vibrations of the quartz crystal shifted at once by a single positive 100Hz vibration...so once every 10,000 vibrations you will notice a slight change in the timing equal to 1000000 - 100 = 999900, which equates to a 0.01% error in the timing at a rate of 50 times per second. Keep in mind that there will also be an error rate of 0.01% in the other direction at a rate of 50 times per second, but shifted later in time. So you are at most shifting the timing by 0.01% at a rate of 100 times per second switching the direction every other time (so sometimes its early and sometimes its late).

So what does this soundlike? Well I would claim it sounds like nothing [;)] When the digital signal is being converted to analog, this just means that certain recorded voltages will be applied to the analog wave form for too long or too short by at most 0.01% - this then gets filtered on down through all the circuitry and out to the speakers...I dunno about your equipment, but mine certainly isn't built to within 0.01% tolerances. We've got group delay on our woofers and tweeters and even the capacitors in our circuits don't behave perfectly.

Anyways, I have gone through quite a lot of simplifications to maximize the effects of vibrations to show that even in a worse case scenario the effects are very small. I think one of the most important things to realize is that the vibrations from our sound source are going to vibrate both the crystal and the detecting device at the same time - so I would claim this 0.01% error rate is going to be more on the order of 0.000001%. To present another example - the clocks in our watches don't have problems tracking time accurately. And if vibration really was an audible issue, don't you think manufactures would implement means to reduce the impact or perhaps find other ways to implement the clock source?

Btw, I do believe jitter is an issue and in fact it can be measured and shown - but I don't think vibrations are going to play a huge role in it. But if you want to go spend money on fancy isolation pads then so be it...a better alternative would be to place the device in another room where your speakers won't be shaking stuff. I feel the general public has been misled because vibration isolation is important with turntables and the occasional microphonic tube - though I don't use those kind of devices for all sorts of reasons, nor does the average consumer so it's not even worth bothering about (and again, you would benefit from simply putting the device in a location where vibrations aren't a concern)

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The only thing that made a difference to my ears regarding isolation was using cones to isolate my Forte's from the floor. I tried vibrapods as did a good friend if mine and we both could not "hear" any difference. Although, we are both 40+++ year old musicians and maybe our hearing is not what it used to be. I think the good Dr. makes a lot of sense!

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hmmm, dbl post...guess I'll split it up so it doesn't look as retarded [;)]

Just outta curiousity, how did you "isolate a speaker from the floor"??? Is it suspended by opposing magnets or something? Hey, that would make for a really cool vibrapod! I think I should go market it and sell it for lots of money - who cares if I don't believe in it if I'm making money! (oh wait, I actually do care...dang it)

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It is recommended to put something under the vipropods like wax paper so that the oil or residue from the vipropod does not stain the wood. I read it from there website a long time ago.

I have black diamond racing cones and pucks under my cd player and I did hear a significant difference in the soundstage when I did this.

I have no experience with the vipropods.

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They may help most with turntables, although there are alternative ways to do damp vibration.

As far as tube microphonics, there are MUCH superior ways to damp tubes and to even provide a bit of additional heat sinking (although many tube 'collars' simply add to the insulation of the tube and contain heat!)

And as far as solid state devices go, well all the tube folks will tell you that they sound so horrendous that nothing would help anyway. Then they run and marvel at the absurd prices replacement tubes bring on EBay for the components that so many maintain never need replacing![6]

The debate over whether electronics are adversely effected by MINUTE vibrations is a quite interesting one. But one that is not evidently deemed sufficient enough in extremely sensitive and critical electronics such as massively parallel super computing and avionics, where essentially cost is no object and if it actually reduced the BER (bit error rate), they WOULD be in use! Needless to say, they are NOT! Gee, and they are silly enough to even rely on copper circuit boards, so what do they know!?![:o]

I fear it is simply another emotional reaction that seems to make sense at first glance until you reach the point where you need to become familiar with the underlying fisiks and then everyone runs away - in other words, 95% of audio as we know it. So needless to say, they belong to that elite group of products of which I am surprised that everyone doesn't have them![:P][6]

[:D][:P][;)][6]

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lol, the explanation was supposed to be achieved when performing the experiment...

btw, jitter is the result of timing issues when a digital signal is being converted into analog. Most devices implement the use of a quartz crystal whose vibrations are very constant and can easily be measured, which then get turned into a timing signal that drives the timing of the DAC (digital to analog converter). The only valid argument then for jitter reduction by isolation of the player is that it reduces changes in the detected vibrations of the quartz crystal. HOWEVER, the vibrations of the quartz crystal are on the order of GHz (gigahertz) whereas the vibrations from our speakers are more on the order of 100Hz. If you do the math/physics, this means that the quartz crystal is providing a positive voltage every 0.0000005 seconds. Our 100Hz vibration will then modulate this vibration in the positive direction every 0.005. This essentially means that you will have 10,000 vibrations of the quartz crystal shifted at once by a single positive 100Hz vibration...so once every 10,000 vibrations you will notice a slight change in the timing equal to 1000000 - 100 = 999900, which equates to a 0.01% error in the timing at a rate of 50 times per second. Keep in mind that there will also be an error rate of 0.01% in the other direction at a rate of 50 times per second, but shifted later in time. So you are at most shifting the timing by 0.01% at a rate of 100 times per second switching the direction every other time (so sometimes its early and sometimes its late).

So what does this soundlike? Well I would claim it sounds like nothing [;)] When the digital signal is being converted to analog, this just means that certain recorded voltages will be applied to the analog wave form for too long or too short by at most 0.01% - this then gets filtered on down through all the circuitry and out to the speakers...I dunno about your equipment, but mine certainly isn't built to within 0.01% tolerances. We've got group delay on our woofers and tweeters and even the capacitors in our circuits don't behave perfectly.

Anyways, I have gone through quite a lot of simplifications to maximize the effects of vibrations to show that even in a worse case scenario the effects are very small. I think one of the most important things to realize is that the vibrations from our sound source are going to vibrate both the crystal and the detecting device at the same time - so I would claim this 0.01% error rate is going to be more on the order of 0.000001%. To present another example - the clocks in our watches don't have problems tracking time accurately. And if vibration really was an audible issue, don't you think manufactures would implement means to reduce the impact or perhaps find other ways to implement the clock source?

Btw, I do believe jitter is an issue and in fact it can be measured and shown - but I don't think vibrations are going to play a huge role in it. But if you want to go spend money on fancy isolation pads then so be it...a better alternative would be to place the device in another room where your speakers won't be shaking stuff. I feel the general public has been misled because vibration isolation is important with turntables and the occasional microphonic tube - though I don't use those kind of devices for all sorts of reasons, nor does the average consumer so it's not even worth bothering about (and again, you would benefit from simply putting the device in a location where vibrations aren't a concern)

Good lord...it was a joke. Get it. Shake. Jitter.

Yeesh.

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When I had the Rega P3 in the mix, I put isolators under the feet, this made a very pleasent difference in the performace of the table in terms of better imaging, there may have been some other attributes but they escape me at the moment. YMMV.

Even my well-suspended TT benefits from an air-bladder Townshend sink under it -- the sound blooms more and is a little less gritty. Another forum member found it isolates one of his TT's from footfall vibration. My CD transport also sounds a little less gritty with a sink under it, while isolating the DAC has no effect. I'm not convinced this has anything to do with jitter (very closely controlled in my system with clock-link circuitry) and I suspect the vibration frequency is nowhere near the jitter frequency. A sink under my tube preamp helped slightly. In all, it seems to me that mechanical isolation can help selected components, YMMV of course.
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My house is old with springy woods floors. My TT was unlistenable without isolation so I figured that it couldn't hurt the cd player.

It doesn't hurt to try. It's vibrapods - they are pretty cheap. Hell my power cord costs 10x as much.

Kidding. Gotcha!

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I've never used Vibrapods before, but I do have solid brass cones underneath my 300B amp, 6SN7 preamp, and CD player. I listened as best I could before the addition of the cones with just the component's rubber feet, and then right after the cones were added, with the same music at the same level.

To be frank, I didn't hear any difference before or after the cones were added. Maybe it's just my ears, or maybe it's because I have a concrete foundation (this was done while my music room was still carpeted...before Hurricane Jeanne flooded my room and I ripped up all the carpeting). Even now while my latest music rack (which also has brass cones) is sitting on the bare concrete floor, I do not detect any imaging improvements. While I don't disagree that spikes, cones, and Vibrapods can't help a system that experiences heavy vibrations, I personally haven't experienced any vibrations thru my system due to footfalls or soundwaves, not even microphonic tubes!

Actually, I just think that cones and spikes look so much cooler underneath my gear than their original hard rubber feet...ugh! I plan on putting something underneath my turntable soon (it definately can't hurt, even though the 'table's design is already implemented with isolation dampening materials and they definately work), if nothing else than for aesthetics!

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... but I do have solid brass cones ...

To be frank, I didn't hear any difference before or after the cones were added.

I can see your problem already!

You just don't have the right cones!!!

You need the cryogenically treated platinum/titanium/activated charcoal/kryptonite versions!

And easy mistake to make!

Since you're 'new' here we will let this indiscretion go this time! But a veteran is expected to know this stuff!![:D][:P][6]

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