Best type of capacitors for recapping Type A Xovers?

[NOSValves]

I guess this capacitor thing is something we (crossover builders and tweakers) will never agree on. My position on this is that with crossover caps, there is capacitance and there is ESR that can effect the sound. Then we can consider working voltage and durability. When we find a cap that is at the top in these qualities, the search is over. I am still waiting for someone to prove to me that there is an audible difference between any two caps used in a crossover that are within 5 percent or so of each other in capacitance and ESR. Bob Crites

Bob,

I'll flip the coin for you. You prove there isn't a difference. To my ears there absolutely is a difference. Measurements are great and I rely on them heavily for initial amplifier design. But in the end the ear is the final judge for final tuning. In crossovers the difference really starts to come forward when you crank things up tight for some realistic live reproduction. At lower levels its very hard to pick out any difference.

Craig

[BEC]

Craig,

I would be happy to prove that. I have all sorts of test crossovers and the ability to instantly switch between any two caps in the same crossover.

Or, I would be happy to have what I believe about caps disproven. That would just start me on a search to find out why there is a difference in sound. If there is a difference, there has to be a way to measure it. I believe in science, not magic.

Come on down.

Bob

[NOSValves]

Bob,

honestly you don't need to prove anything to me I did it myself. Besides I think you would have to upgrade many other items in the test setup to prove anything to me[] Also I would not put numerous switches and mechanical connections in a signal path and expect solid results. I think the best place for people to get a honest comparison is in there own system, in there own home where they are comfortable and can takes weeks to analyze what they hear and like. Take the distortion test repeatedly that was posted on this forum I bet you money you can't repeat the results consecutively it just doesn't work that way. When I voice an amplifier and do my fine tuning I take literally weeks and weeks of listening, changing, listening, changing, testing, changing, listening. Its take a wide array of music and time to really discern the differences. But once its right to persons ears there is no denying it.

Craig


PS my post about the "best your wallet can afford" does not in anyway mean that the best has to be the most expensive. The best is the best period but time and experience has proven to me that the best usually falls in the middle of the pricing scheme. It is rarely at the extremes either way.

[BEC]

Craig,

That is the thing about testing. It has to be well thought out so that all the test rig is in the test at all times during the comparison. That takes your concern about test switches and mechanical connections out of the test.

You also have to take one more major thing into consideration in the test. The brain is capable of more effect on the sound than any of the other variables. We tend to hear what we think we will hear.

PWK was once asked. "Why do you do so much lab testing when what it sounds like is most important." He replied, "Because I don't trust my ears."

Bob

[NOSValves]

Bob,

I guess the best thing for us to do is simply agree to disagree. There is more to this then test results. If all that had to be done is make the best testing device to end the search then there would be one set of crossovers, one set of speakers, one amplifier, one preamp, one CD player and so on. Your thinking and experience is just different then mine. So be it.

Craig

[Hardhead]

Erik--

I noticed that Angela advertises those oil-run caps for power supplies, not for signal use. Which does Welbourne use oil-run caps for, power supply or signal use?

Just wondering.

[BEC]

Craig said: "I guess the best thing for us to do is simply agree to disagree."

Well, if we have to. Remember, I am always avaliable to be proven wrong and would be happy to prove myself wrong and announce it to the world if I can come up with a way to do it.

I am glad you modified the "best you can afford" idea on components. I think it is unlikely that most expensive is better in many cases. I know that price was the last thing I ever looked at in choosing components professionally.

Bob

[NOSValves]

Craig said: "I guess the best thing for us to do is simply agree to disagree." Well, if we have to. Remember, I am always avaliable to be proven wrong and would be happy to prove myself wrong and announce it to the world if I can come up with a way to do it. I am glad you modified the "best you can afford" idea on components. I think it is unlikely that most expensive is better in many cases. I know that price was the last thing I ever looked at in choosing components professionally. Bob

Bob,

Actually I didn't modify anything about my statement. I just clarified what it meant. One person here tried to twist it's meaning into something that was never stated. I never said buy the most "expensive" your wallet could afford. I said the "best"........ huge difference. What is funny is the guy that made this judgement on what I said is a teacher go figure....

Craig

[JSharp]

Who's starting the pool on this?

ABX testing, 2 brands/kinds/types of caps within 5% of value as was mentioned. All

someone has to do to take the $$ is be able to identify which part is

which above the level of random probability.

I'm thinking there's a lot of forum members who will want in on this...

[Jay L]

send me your favorite xover and i'll do the test, i'm not biased. []

[BEC]

Other audio groups have done the "cap listening comparison" thing at gatherings before. Of the ones I have read, even when the mix of caps included truly terrible (electrolytics, cheap mylars or whatever) caps in the crossovers, no one could consistently pick out any certain ones. If one could actually hear a difference, you would still not be finished. You would need to pick out the "best". In that case, what your brain expects to hear would add another whole different set of variables.

Bob

[NOSValves]

My point exactly so you might just as well throw away your switching setup! It takes weeks of carefull listening to get any real handle on these types of things. The differences are there but quick changing isn't going to hold much water. You have to listen with a wide array of music over time to make any tried and true conclusion IMHO. This is true with all the aspects of your system not just crossover caps. I know when I can relax and quit messing with my system this is when it all sounds right! I have reached that point in my system in the shop. Upstairs in my livingroom its getting there but there is still something missing. I'll get there but it will take a change here and there then listen for a week or two then change something again and another few weeks..... Long process but worth it in the end.

Craig

[JSharp]

Other audio groups have done the "cap listening

comparison" thing at gatherings before. Of the ones I have read, even

when the mix of caps included truly terrible (electrolytics, cheap

mylars or whatever) caps in the crossovers, no one could consistently

pick out any certain ones. If one could actually hear a difference, you

would still not be finished. You would need to pick out the "best". In

that case, what your brain expects to hear would add another whole

different set of variables.

Bob

Everything I've read and heard tells me the same thing. This is why I

don't feel all that bad about using $.63 Panasonic polypropylene caps

in low level circuitry instead of $20 "magic audio caps"...

[JSharp]

My point exactly so you might just as well

throw away your switching setup! It takes weeks of carefull listening

to get any real handle on these types of things. The differences are

there but quick changing isn't going to hold much water. You have to

listen with a wide array of music over time to make any tried and true

conclusion IMHO. This is true with all the aspects of your system not

just crossover caps. I know when I can relax and quit messing

with my system this is when it all sounds right! I have reached

that point in my system in the shop. Upstairs in my livingroom its

getting there but there is still something missing. I'll get there but

it will take a change here and there then listen for a week or two then

change something again and another few weeks..... Long process

but worth it in the end.

Craig

Ok. But can you still "hear" these differences if you don't know what's changed if anything?

[NOSValves]

[

Ok. But can you still "hear" these differences if you don't know what's changed if anything?

Now exactly how, when I'm the one doing the changing would I be able to answer that for you? Even if I wasn't the one doing the changing how could I answer it for the "we" in your question? Hey you folks want to go on listening to your stuff as is or with whatever cap you choose go for it no problem with me. But to say that just because it can't be measured it isn't there is just plan closed minded. Or just because "PWK said this" its the absolute end all is just blind thinking. The biggest advantage to Klipsch speakers is Paul built them to do more with less! If you think they can't do even better with more then my hats off to you.

Craig

[JSharp]

[

Ok. But can you still "hear" these differences if you don't know what's changed if anything?

Now

exactly how, when I'm the one doing the changing would I be able

to answer that for you? Even if I wasn't the one doing

the changing how could I answer it for the "we" in your question?

Hey you folks want to go on listening to your stuff as is

or with whatever cap you choose go for it no problem

with me. But to say that just because it can't be measured it isn't

there is just plan closed minded. Or just because "PWK said this" its

the absolute end all is just blind thinking. The biggest advantage

to Klipsch speakers is Paul built them to do more with less! If

you think they can't do even better with more then my hats off to

you.

Craig

The point I was trying to get to is that if people can truly hear a

difference, we should be able to quantify that and duplicate it. If we

can't, it means one of two things. That we're not measuring something

that's audible and we should be, or that the differences people often

claim they "hear" don't really exist as physical effects. One way to

eliminate the latter is to remove the possibility of suggestion from

the equation. That procedure is a basic part of blind and

hopefully objective testing that's done and not just on audio

equipment. It's part of the basic foundation of science and

engineering. If there's no attempt to get the observers feelings and subjectivity out

of the observation it's likely not going to be accurate. For

example, I've been in and on a lot of vehicles that "really felt fast"

only to discover their real performance wasn't nearly as good as some

others that don't "feel" that way. IOW, my butt wasn't nearly as

accurate as a stopwatch and thinking, talking, my friends

opinion, loud mufflers or a hard ride couldn't change that.

I also wasn't intending to try to defend Bob's position, because

he hardly needs here it especially from some new guy, but I recently got a

set of Cornwall crossovers re-capped by him. I had him do it not

because I can't solder and crimp connectors myself, because I can

assure you, I've been at those things about as long as he has. I did it

because I assumed Bob had done some research into what worked well in

those crossovers. It made sense to not attempt to re-invent the wheel

when another person had conveniently already done it for me and was

willing to provide that to me for very little $$.

When I got the crossovers back, I immediately noticed how much better

they sounded. Not just better, but a very obvious difference in the mid

and tweeter output, and with improved clarity. Of course I wanted to

hear a difference, because I'd just spent time and effort and $$ on

something I believed would matter.

I used the minimal equipment I own and sure enough, the Mid and HF

output was measurably higher than before. The instruments confirmed

what I thought I was hearing. I could have let it go, but I

wasn't willing to just trust what I heard and wanted to see it measured

and quantified and explained. I'm satisfied after doing that.

So to circle back to the point I was trying to make in my original

post, it seems to me that before anyone can decide "this item sounds

better than that one," it's important to first be able to show that a

given item in fact can even be distinguished from another consistently

and repeatably. If we can't meet that minimum standard, and we can't

measure any differences either, we'll never be able to agree on "what

sounds better" and we'll be dealing with psychology or magic but not

any kind of science that I'm aware of.

As far as improving what we have in our Klipsch speakers, I'm sure

there are a number of people here who have done exactly that. Like any

other product, they were made to a set of criteria that included size,

price, performance, parts availability, manufacturability, and a whole

list of other things I'm sure. No different than any other product on

the market. I just think some changes don't really make them better.

They make them different and in way that isn't always audible. Nothing wrong with that, it's just hard

to sort out what's really "better" if we can't consistantly show they're even different...

<shrug> Jim - who's just an old engineer who likes music and loves his old Klipsch speakers.

[NOSValves]

"If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."

- Daniel R. von Recklinghausen,

former Chief Research Engineer, H.H. Scott

[BEC]

Craig,

Have to watch quoting H. H. Scott Engineering or I might have to tell you what they told me in 1968 about their "new" solid state line of gear compared to the tube stuff.

Bob

[NOSValves]

Bob your getting to be pretty petty don't you think?

Craig

[Deang]

He's joking Craig!