Best type of capacitors for recapping Type A Xovers?

[Deang]

Some people call my music that.

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

"However... if you do that you will likely find that you are *far* more able to determine small differences in sound when you listen to a familiar pieces and are able to switch back and forth between A/B/X quickly for immediate comparisons. Auditory memory is extremely faulty... rapid comparisons help to cover for that. "

This is precisely why I contemplated building a simple type 'A' network, using the autoformer rather than the variable control (most people will have the former, not the latter), which would enable immediate switching between different types of capacitors of a common value. There is simply too much room for error if a system has to be powered down and time taken for removal of one part for the installation of another -- and then to listen again. Make-before-break switching would enable those contemplating crossover upgrades to choose what they individually prefer, even if that preference may in fact turn out to be produced by the less expensive components.

I know of cases, for example, where some who have built Rozenblit's OTLs or preamp tried to 'improve' the sound with exotic and grossly priced capacitors, only to return to what was originally included with the kit. It wasn't necessarily that the more expensive parts made the amp/preamp sound worse, but rather that they didn't make any difference!

Erik

[BEC]

Here is a nice little circuit (lousy drawing) that can be used to compare instantly any two caps or inductors in a crossover circuit.

The switch alternately shorts one of the components while putting the other in the circuit. Radio shack has the switches for a couple of bucks.

Bob Crites

[P Bear]

Apparently some speakers are more influenced by the type of cap than others. I haven't changed the caps on my Cornwalls yet but changing caps on Magnepans makes a monumental difference. Every person that replaced the stock caps that I read about on the Planer Asylum at AA was thrilled with the difference, and we are talking about dozens of people here. Using the stock values of caps and coils I at least doubled the sound quality. The Obbligato caps from DIY Hi-Fi supply in Hong Kong were the best. Hovland caps were great. Motor run caps on Maggies aren't bad, but not as good as the other two.

[Deang]

What I find kind of ironic is that there isn't a single manufacturer of loudspeakers, neither mid-fi nor high end that utilizes motor run capacitors in their networks -- and the only people you find fooling around with them are "loony audiophiles". I guess Bob is an audiophile after all.

[BEC]

Now Dean, Let's not resort to name calling. The "loony" part is OK, but I object to the "audiophile" part.

I think cheap is the operative term for what most speaker manufacturers buy for caps. Cheap is also probably pretty good for a few years, perhaps almost as long as the foam lasts on the woofers. I like quality and durabllity in speakers and in speaker parts. I own lots of Klisch Speakers.

Bob Crites

[sfogg]

Bob,

"Here is a nice little circuit (lousy drawing) that can be used to

compare instantly any two caps or inductors in a crossover circuit. "

The problem with that though is exactly what you said earlier...

"what your brain expects to hear would add another whole different set of variables."

When you compare sighted you aren't eliminating that whole different

set of variables. A persons biases can and may influence what they

hear... there is no control to eliminate that. That is the point of an

ABX box. It establishes a control and is double blind to the person

under test.

Shawn

ABX.pdf

[Deang]

LOL, yeah, I guess that was a low blow.

Man, I don't have any Klipsch speakers -- just some Klappenhorns.

[BEC]

Shawn,

But, the neat thing is, that so far in my little switch flipping episodes with different (but similar by testing) caps, we have never even gotten that far. No one so has even been able to tell when the switch was operated. Until someone can do that, the judging for better or worse can't even start.

Bob

[sfogg]

Bob,

ABX testing can't prove/show better/worse. It can simply show if there is an audible difference or not.

As far as detecting when someone else throws a switch that is pretty

tough even with things that do sound different. That is why typically

switching is under the control of the listener in any ABX test.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Bob,

Ever think your system powering the speakers may not be able to send a truly detailed signal to the crossover for a difference to be heard?

Listing your amps, preamp and sources used in your testing might be helpful.

Craig

[BEC]

Shawn,

Not a perfect test of course, but it sure quickly changes the minds of those who believe there is a "night and day" difference between two components. And, I believe, if there is any chance of evaluating two components by ear, it would have to be an instant change and not a change absorbed over time.

We all have a very sophisticated equalizer in our audio systems and it is between our ears. I think that equalizer is the major influence on the sound. I think if we expect a certain change to sound good, most likely it will sound good to us. I think the opposite is also true. If we are looking for something to sound wrong, it will sound wrong.

I don't think I will convince many to buy or build an ABX test rig. I might convince a few to buy a 2 buck switch.

Bob

[BEC]

Craig,

I guess you may need to define the "truly detailed signal" for me.

Everything I use covers the audio spectrum within 1 db or so, has low distortion, adequate power and low noise. There is nothing else to consider that I know of. Do you have more to add to this list?

You are perhaps indicating some brands or types sound different. They often do, but not if they meet the above listed requirements.

Bob

[JSharp]

What I find kind of ironic is that there isn't a

single manufacturer of loudspeakers, neither mid-fi nor high end that

utilizes motor run capacitors in their networks -- and the only people

you find fooling around with them are "loony audiophiles". I guess Bob

is an audiophile after all.

Those parts may be "motor run" capacitors by application, but in fact,

they're actually high quality polypropylene in oil capacitors of the

correct values. They're parts with likely conservative ratings, built

by a real electrical device manufacturer ( as opposed to audio industry

charlatans), and made to operate in severe industrial environments

without causing problems in expensive motors attached to possibly

multi-million dollar equipment.

I seriously wonder what people would think of them if Bob had never

mentioned where they came from and instead had sent them out to have

some exotic finish applied to them, then charged $90 each for them...

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

I already have a late start on a busy day, but I wanted to mention something regarding this discussion of testing between you and Bob. I had written a lengthy response, of course just an opinion, that got lost at the time of submitting it (most likely my fault).

I entirely agree with the psychological component in this, and it's something that comes into play here constantly. If a comparison test of capacitors is being conducted, it would be very easy to influence the outcome by, as you say, knowledge of and about the components being used. "Ok, everyone, first up is this cheap little mylar I found in my parts bin. These little things cost hardly anything! (insert sound of laughter), and don't have the best reputation for serious audio-use in hi-end circles." And the test proceeds. "Next up to bat we have the Hovland 'Musicap' ('musicap' even sounds enticing). These things are costly, and have silver leads insulated with Teflon."

The hidden curriculum is able to train thinking and perceptions in very subtle ways. If capacitors, such as the oil-run motor type for example, are continually negatively and publicly criticized in an environment where many of the inhabitants don't have the benefit or background to be able to judge for themselvels, the chances of a general negative regard for them, IMO, will increase.

Given the choice of a lowly (but extremely well-made and durable poly/oil cap and those Baptised as 'Auricap' or 'Hovland Musicap,' I would think most hi-end speaker makers would like to be able to advertise as using those 'true' high-fidelity capacitor types. It's rather simple marketing, I think. Moreover, the cost savings of buying such tubular capacitors in bulk is probably not insignificant. Whether those savings are subsequently passed on to the consumer is a factor that might warrant further investigation.

The question concerning whether Bob's electronic equipment is able to pass a signal deserving of the likes of the fancy capacitors with silver leads is very unwarranted, if not entirely out-of-place.

Shawn: I agree with what you are saying about the use of such a switch in a test situation. I do think that it's something that might be interesting and possibly useful to have on hand for personal use. I wouldn't mind having a network that enabled switching between three different capacitors in the tweeter branch. I'm at the point where I honestly don't care what the type or brand is -- it's just a capacitor, and I would be fine using any variety regardless of its cost, if it sounded good to me. This is my whole premise! It doesn't matter if someone prefers what costs the most or costs the least. What matters is that the individual be allowed to choose for him or herself without worry of ridicule or other undesirable consequence. The problem, which I have seen happen tons of times here, is that the 'said' personal choice is often not accepted -- indeed that the person making the choice is doing so because of a lack of understanding, knowledge, and experience. Absolute nonsense. If given the choice to choose between three different types is done in a way where both the test administrator and test listener have no previous knowledge of what the three types of capacitors are -- and it turns out that the favored capacitor is the least expensive one (or for that matter, the most expensive one) -- that is the critical factor. IMO, IME, etc.

Erik

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

It never seases to amaze me how everybody goes bananas comparing one brand of capacitor or another. The worst quality caps I know of are those over-priced Jensen paper in oil things. They have a "Q" rating as low as 200 and very poor capacity value tolerance. Most any polypropylene cap will have Q rating beyone 1000! "Q" by the way, is defined as X/R, or Reactance divided by ESR. On the other hand, the very best inductors I know of have Q ratings on the or of 50. That's the Solen "Litz" wire inductors. Soid wire inductors are luckey to make it to a Q of 20! The moral is that you are all barking up the wrong tree! Inductors have always been the major bottleneck in filter performace, not the blasted caps! This is one of the reasons I use the Solen "FastCaps" in all my advanced designs. The are about the best bang for the buck out there and you can get them from 200 uF down to 1 uFd. They are very consistant in their value and Q. Use them, same yourself some money and start comparing INDUCTORS insted!

Al K.

[Deang]

Jsharp -- I've enjoyed your thoughtful posts, but you're off target on the "audiophile" cap thing. Regardless of brand name, there is only a small handful of manufacturers that make capacitors. For example -- Hovlands, Auricaps, and Kimbers are all rolled at the same place. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor uses someone else. The biggest determining factor in pricing is the type and quality of the film. Now, if you go to the Mouser Catalog, you will see that capacitors of similiar type and build from Vishay and Wima cost about the same as Auricap and Kimber. The problem here is the limited values they have to choose from. No, I don't like it that some of these companies also sell products for the voodoo side of audio, or that the marketing used for the capacitors sometimes borders on the nonsensical -- but it doesn't detract from the fact that they are quality capacitors. If you want a mil spec high quality polypropylene that doesn't use motor or recycled film, and need a wide variety of values to choose from -- there aren't many choices.

I'm not about to engage in a debate regarding whether or not a mid-fi product has the same resolving power and transparency as high-end separates or quality tube gear -- I left that debate back in the 70's. I think this complete rejection of all things high end is counter-conducive to why we are in this hobby in the first place -- the best sound we can get with the money we have available. Yeah, there is a lot of crap associated with this hobby -- so you just have to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

[fini]

Craig sez:

"Where I come from for something to be funny it actually has to be funnyWink [] I didn't see anything humorous in Bob's reply or his follow up reply. No big deal either way."

How were you measuring Bob's reply?

[NOSValves]

Craig, I guess you may need to define the "truly detailed signal" for me. Everything I use covers the audio spectrum within 1 db or so, has low distortion, adequate power and low noise. There is nothing else to consider that I know of. Do you have more to add to this list? You are perhaps indicating some brands or types sound different. They often do, but not if they meet the above listed requirements. Bob

Bob,

I have to commend that was a excellent dodge to the question []

Craig

[BEC]

Dean,

When I was considering having some caps custom made by a cap manufacturing company, placing the cap in a metal can was by far the most expensive part of the manufacturing process. No matter what materials you specify for building the cap out of, the price goes crazy if you want the metal can. Of course when you build millions of them, even the can becomes affordable.

I would expect that the materials to build any of the caps we have discussed is pennys.

Bob