Best type of capacitors for recapping Type A Xovers?

[NOSValves]

What I find kind of ironic is that there isn't a single manufacturer of loudspeakers, neither mid-fi nor high end that utilizes motor run capacitors in their networks -- and the only people you find fooling around with them are "loony audiophiles". I guess Bob is an audiophile after all.

Those parts may be "motor run" capacitors by application, but in fact, they're actually high quality polypropylene in oil capacitors of the correct values. They're parts with likely conservative ratings, built by a real electrical device manufacturer ( as opposed to audio industry charlatans), and made to operate in severe industrial environments without causing problems in expensive motors attached to possibly multi-million dollar equipment.

I seriously wonder what people would think of them if Bob had never mentioned where they came from and instead had sent them out to have some exotic finish applied to them, then charged $90 each for them...

Woh!! When did anyone say that what Bob uses specifically is of low quality? That was not the point of any of this. Bob is using something that he feels does the job just fine and it does for the most part. I just feel there are gains to be made beyond motor runs and it doesn't take mega buck audiophile priced stuff to do it. This is my own personal experience and I have owned or used just about every stock or after market cap out there. I'm in no way saying Bob is using cheap low quality caps!

Craig

[sfogg]

"if there is any chance of evaluating two components by ear, it would have to be an instant change and not a change absorbed over time. "

I agree.

"I don't think I will convince many to buy or build an ABX test rig."

I am very sure few will buy an ABX box. I have one and have lent it to a few people that are really interested in testing this sort of thing. I know of only two other people online that have bought them.

" I might convince a few to buy a 2 buck switch. "

Sure, but what happens if XYZ buys a 2 buck switch... hooks up two different types of capacitors and switches back and forth between the two and states they hear a difference? There is no method of verifying that claim in a A/B test. You would be exactly where you are now.... 'does too'....'does not'..... 'does too'..... 'does not.'

An A/B test (what the 2 buck switch is) has no method of knowing if they actually hear what they say or if they are fooling themselves on the difference. It isn't a good test because of that.

Hook up two identical components (or even the exact same) on A and B and tell those listening that they are different. Doing a simple A/B comparison on a number of 'audiophiles' and without a doubt some of them will describe differences between them based on bias/preconceived notions and the power of suggestion. There is no way of eliminating that with an A/B test and there is no way of verifying results.

Do the same thing with an ABX test and the bias/suggestion is eliminated and there is a control to determine if a person is actually hearing what they claim to. That is why in any sort of controlled testing in almost any field double blind testing is used sometimes in an ABX manor or sometimes with a control group.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Guys,

It never seases to amaze me how everybody goes bananas comparing one brand of capacitor or another. The worst quality caps I know of are those over-priced Jensen paper in oil things. They have a "Q" rating as low as 200 and very poor capacity value tolerance. Most any polypropylene cap will have Q rating beyone 1000! "Q" by the way, is defined as X/R, or Reactance divided by ESR. On the other hand, the very best inductors I know of have Q ratings on the or of 50. That's the Solen "Litz" wire inductors. Soid wire inductors are luckey to make it to a Q of 20! The moral is that you are all barking up the wrong tree! Inductors have always been the major bottleneck in filter performace, not the blasted caps! This is one of the reasons I use the Solen "FastCaps" in all my advanced designs. The are about the best bang for the buck out there and you can get them from 200 uF down to 1 uFd. They are very consistant in their value and Q. Use them, same yourself some money and start comparing INDUCTORS instead!

Al K.

Al,

I don't get it? Why would you use Solens in your high buck ES crossovers and Hovlands in your less expensive universal? I mean if they make no difference why the heck would you spend 20 times more for those 2 locations on the universal networks? Wouldn't it be pertinent to omit the Hovlands and pass the savings onto your customers?

Oh and I agree completely on the Jensen PIO over priced crap. To me Solens are priced fairly at what they are worth[]

Craig

[NOSValves]

Craig sez: "Where I come from for something to be funny it actually has to be funnyWink [] I didn't see anything humorous in Bob's reply or his follow up reply. No big deal either way." How were you measuring Bob's reply?

I had a panel of ten people standing behind me reading Bob's reply they were all holding a switch box to choose funny or serious so one persons choice could not influence the others[] The verdict was 8 to 2 that his post was not funny[]

Craig

[sfogg]

Erik,

"The question concerning whether Bob's electronic equipment is able to pass a signal deserving of the likes of the fancy capacitors with silver leads is very unwarranted, if not entirely out-of-place."

It is *always* what those making certain claims bring up. That or they outright call someone deaf.

That is *exactly* why the 'doubters' can't prove a negative. Because those making the claims will always fall back to the above position.

Hence... those making the claims are the ones that have the burden of proof put on them.

But if you see enough debates like this you will find they are typically unwilling to be tested. Because while they like to make broad sweeping claims about their system or their ears they are afraid of actually backing it up with verifiable data. Accoutability....bad......

Every once in awhile though some will try an ABX test though. Typically they go in with the attitude of 'passing will be easy' and that they are going to prove something. What happens after the test is always interesting to witness. If the person fails sometimes they learned an important lesson about the power of suggestion... sometimes they go on the offensive about the whole idea of testing and switch to claiming the differences are too small to be determined in a test like this.... those same differences they earlier on claimed were much larger.

Shawn

[007]

Just to cast a vote. I replaced a TypeA with Audiocaps. Little pricy...but good.

I would be careful with words like "Little pricy...but good." That seems to be the #1 justification for a bose purchase.

[NOSValves]

So according to the Anal opinion god! Sources, Amps, Preamp's make absolutely no difference in what someone hears or the resolution of there system! I guess we should all sell all are gear we have taken years to filter through to end at are desired sound. Heck I guess we can dump all the Klipsch speakers while were at it since there has to be something that spec's out better for less money. Then we can run up to Best Buy and purchase whatever happens to have the best specs for the cheapest possible price because literally none of this makes any difference. Heck I have a Sony surround receiver that has some great specs I think I'll just start using that.

I think my question was absolutely valid.

Craig

[sfogg]

" So according to the Anal opinion god!"

Are you capable of having a discussion without hurling insults?

Or is it that your position is simply so weak you have no choice but to resort to ad hominem debate tactics as you have nothing useful worth saying?

" Sources, Amps, Preamp's make absolutely no difference in what someone hears or the resolution of there system!"

Your statement, not mine.

If you have to put words in someone elses mouth (the straw man argument) to try to make a point that is your perogitive... but you can go continue to argue with yourself.

Shawn

[Deang]

Yeah Craig, you ******* -- quit hurling insults. C'mon Man, is anyone around here really more anal than you are! Seriously, I think we're all anal retentive types. Anyways, what Shawn is saying is that he isn't saying what you think he's saying, but I think it does need a bit of clarification though.

"The question concerning whether Bob's electronic equipment is able to pass a signal deserving of the likes of the fancy capacitors with silver leads is very unwarranted, if not entirely out-of-place."

Like Craig, I also have a major issue with this line of reasoning, and agree with him completely that the quality of the gear contributes significantly to whether or not one can perceive shifts in signature from component changes in a network.

I also object to the descriptions used for these capacitors as "audiophile type", "fancy", "sold by charlatans", or other descriptions meant in a derogatory sense. To me, it simply shows ignorance regarding the materials used, the manufacturing process, and that purpose of usage dictates the capacitor type.

[JSharp]

Jsharp -- I've enjoyed your thoughtful posts,

but you're off target on the "audiophile" cap thing. Regardless of

brand name, there is only a small handful of manufacturers that make

capacitors. For example -- Hovlands, Auricaps, and Kimbers are all

rolled at the same place. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor uses

someone else. The biggest determining factor in pricing is the type and

quality of the film. Now, if you go to the Mouser Catalog, you will see

that capacitors of similiar type and build from Vishay and Wima cost

about the same as Auricap and Kimber. The problem here is the limited

values they have to choose from. No, I don't like it that some of these

companies also sell products for the voodoo side of audio, or that the

marketing used for the capacitors sometimes borders on the nonsensical

-- but it doesn't detract from the fact that they are quality

capacitors. If you want a mil spec high quality polypropylene that

doesn't use motor or recycled film, and need a wide variety of

values to choose from -- there aren't many choices.

I'm not about to engage in a debate regarding whether or not a

mid-fi product has the same resolving power

and transparency as high-end separates or quality tube gear

-- I left that debate back in the 70's. I think this complete rejection

of all things high end is counter-conducive to why we are in this

hobby in the first place -- the best sound we can get with the money we

have available. Yeah, there is a lot of crap associated with this hobby

-- so you just have to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Dean - I think my last post missed the mark by more than 1/2 but I never

claimed to be a writer. I wasn't claiming some of these specialty audio

components were bad so much as they are very often designed to

outlandish and questionable specifications and consequently overpriced,

then sold with dubious claims in an attempt to justify this price. And

the case of many of them, it's more a function of how they're marketed

and the volumes they're manufactured in than it is in any use of

superior materials or better manufacturing techniques. As you've said,

there just aren't that many people building capacitors of this type

anymore so the likelihood of them being built on the same lines as

commodity parts is very high, as is the likelihood the performance is

almost identical.

It's not my point reject any and all hi-end components so much as it is

to try to do exactly what you say - find the meat and avoid the bones.

I'm probably just oversensitive to ordering "the best tasting chicken

meat in the world," paying $20 a pound for it, then being sent a bucket

of skinny wings with an endorsement that says they'll taste better than

any other wings because they were grown on all natural farms, high in

the andes, with soothing music played to them though out their

scientifically determined optimum length life. Damn, you did all that

and all I wanted was decent quality chicken meat? And to make it worse,

the meat tastes just like the meat from the local farms I can buy for

$1.59 a pound.

In my case, my skepticism is probably caused by spending too many years

of trying to engineer to meet specious marketing specifications...

--

Jim

edit: to fix my mistake...

[sfogg]

Dean,

"Like Craig, I also have a major issue with this line of reasoning. "

The point is what Bob does or does not have in his system is irrelevant for what Craig or yourself are claiming to hear in your system.

Re-read my earlier post about why it isn't possible for a 'doubter' to prove a negative. Then reread the post you are questioning and include the next couple of lines.....

"It is *always* what those making certain claims bring up. That or they outright call someone deaf.

That is *exactly* why the 'doubters' can't prove a negative. Because those making the claims will always fall back to the above position. "

Which they will. And there is nothing a doubter can do to prove otherwise. As such what the doubters have or have not isn't an issue.

If X had the exact same components as Y then Y could (and likely would) claim that X's room or X's ears are at fault for why they can't hear what Y is claiming.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Jsharp -- I've enjoyed your thoughtful posts, but you're off target on the "audiophile" cap thing. Regardless of brand name, there is only a small handful of manufacturers that make capacitors. For example -- Hovlands, Auricaps, and Kimbers are all rolled at the same place. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor uses someone else. The biggest determining factor in pricing is the type and quality of the film. Now, if you go to the Mouser Catalog, you will see that capacitors of similiar type and build from Vishay and Wima cost about the same as Auricap and Kimber. The problem here is the limited values they have to choose from. No, I don't like it that some of these companies also sell products for the voodoo side of audio, or that the marketing used for the capacitors sometimes borders on the nonsensical -- but it doesn't detract from the fact that they are quality capacitors. If you want a mil spec high quality polypropylene that doesn't use motor or recycled film, and need a wide variety of values to choose from -- there aren't many choices.

I'm not about to engage in a debate regarding whether or not a mid-fi product has the same resolving power and transparency as high-end separates or quality tube gear -- I left that debate back in the 70's. I think this complete rejection of all things high end is counter-conducive to why we are in this hobby in the first place -- the best sound we can get with the money we have available. Yeah, there is a lot of crap associated with this hobby -- so you just have to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Craig I think my last post missed the mark by more than 1/2 but I never claimed to be a writer. I wasn't claiming some of these specialty audio components were bad so much as they are very often designed to outlandish and questionable specifications and consequently overpriced, then sold with dubious claims in an attempt to justify this price. And the case of many of them, it's more a function of how they're marketed and the volumes they're manufactured in than it is in any use of superior materials or better manufacturing techniques. As you've said, there just aren't that many people building capacitors of this type anymore so the likelihood of them being built on the same lines as commodity parts is very high, as is the likelihood the performance is almost identical.

It's not my point reject any and all hi-end components so much as it is to try to do exactly what you say - find the meat and avoid the bones. I'm probably just oversensitive to ordering "the best tasting chicken meat in the world," paying $20 a pound for it, then being sent a bucket of skinny wings with an endorsement that says they'll taste better than any other wings because they were grown on all natural farms, high in the andes, with soothing music played to them though out their scientifically determined optimum length life. Damn, you did all that and all I wanted was decent quality chicken meat? And to make it worse, the meat tastes just like the meat from the local farms I can buy for $1.59 a pound.

In my case, my skepticism is probably caused by spending too many years of trying to engineer to meet specious marketing specifications...

--

Jim

Jim,

Your quoting Dean and addressing me is this a mistake?

Craig

[JSharp]

Jsharp -- I've enjoyed your thoughtful posts, but you're off target

on the "audiophile" cap thing. Regardless of brand name, there is only

a small handful of manufacturers that make capacitors. For example --

Hovlands, Auricaps, and Kimbers are all rolled at the same place.

Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor uses someone else. The biggest

determining factor in pricing is the type and quality of the film. Now,

if you go to the Mouser Catalog, you will see that capacitors of

similiar type and build from Vishay and Wima cost about the same as

Auricap and Kimber. The problem here is the limited values they have to

choose from. No, I don't like it that some of these companies also sell

products for the voodoo side of audio, or that the marketing used for

the capacitors sometimes borders on the nonsensical -- but it doesn't

detract from the fact that they are quality capacitors. If you want a

mil spec high quality polypropylene that doesn't use motor or recycled

film, and need a wide variety of values to choose from -- there

aren't many choices.

I'm not about to engage in a debate regarding whether or not a

mid-fi product has the same resolving power

and transparency as high-end separates or quality tube gear

-- I left that debate back in the 70's. I think this complete rejection

of all things high end is counter-conducive to why we are in this

hobby in the first place -- the best sound we can get with the money we

have available. Yeah, there is a lot of crap associated with this hobby

-- so you just have to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Craig

I think my last post missed the mark by more than 1/2 but I never

claimed to be a writer. I wasn't claiming some of these specialty audio

components were bad so much as they are very often designed to

outlandish and questionable specifications and consequently overpriced,

then sold with dubious claims in an attempt to justify this price. And

the case of many of them, it's more a function of how they're marketed

and the volumes they're manufactured in than it is in any use of

superior materials or better manufacturing techniques. As you've said,

there just aren't that many people building capacitors of this type

anymore so the likelihood of them being built on the same lines as

commodity parts is very high, as is the likelihood the performance is

almost identical.

It's not my point reject any and all hi-end

components so much as it is to try to do exactly what you say - find

the meat and avoid the bones. I'm probably just oversensitive to

ordering "the best tasting chicken meat in the world," paying $20 a

pound for it, then being sent a bucket of skinny wings with an

endorsement that says they'll taste better than any other wings because

they were grown on all natural farms, high in the andes, with soothing

music played to them though out their scientifically determined optimum

length life. Damn, you did all that and all I wanted was decent quality

chicken meat? And to make it worse, the meat tastes just like the meat

from the local farms I can buy for $1.59 a pound.

In my case, my

skepticism is probably caused by spending too many years of trying to

engineer to meet specious marketing specifications...

--

Jim

Jim,

Your quoting Dean and addressing me is this a mistake?

Craig

Yep, it sure is a mistake... Trying to do too many things at once... I'll edit it now.

--

Jim

[NOSValves]

" So according to the Anal opinion god!" Are you capable of having a discussion without hurling insults? Or is it that your position is simply so weak you have no choice but to resort to ad hominem debate tactics as you have nothing useful worth saying? " Sources, Amps, Preamp's make absolutely no difference in what someone hears or the resolution of there system!" Your statement, not mine. If you have to put words in someone elses mouth (the straw man argument) to try to make a point that is your perogitive... but you can go continue to argue with yourself. Shawn

Yea I can have a discussion with out hurling insults. BUT that is when people are not cleverly hurling insults at me in a decidedly obscure fashion. My question about the system used was too Bob not you so I think its none of your business if its appropriate or not. Your post may not of said "Craig" but it was in reference to what I asked and the entire post was a clever insult.

Now your taking my statements out of context and twisting them around. So now your going to turn into the lets pick someones grammar apart and this isn't insulting? Is your argument that weak?

Since when were you designated the savior of anyone that Craig has a discussion with? There was no civility problem in this thread until few choice people joined in.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Jsharp -- I've enjoyed your thoughtful posts, but you're off target on the "audiophile" cap thing. Regardless of brand name, there is only a small handful of manufacturers that make capacitors. For example -- Hovlands, Auricaps, and Kimbers are all rolled at the same place. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor uses someone else. The biggest determining factor in pricing is the type and quality of the film. Now, if you go to the Mouser Catalog, you will see that capacitors of similiar type and build from Vishay and Wima cost about the same as Auricap and Kimber. The problem here is the limited values they have to choose from. No, I don't like it that some of these companies also sell products for the voodoo side of audio, or that the marketing used for the capacitors sometimes borders on the nonsensical -- but it doesn't detract from the fact that they are quality capacitors. If you want a mil spec high quality polypropylene that doesn't use motor or recycled film, and need a wide variety of values to choose from -- there aren't many choices.

I'm not about to engage in a debate regarding whether or not a mid-fi product has the same resolving power and transparency as high-end separates or quality tube gear -- I left that debate back in the 70's. I think this complete rejection of all things high end is counter-conducive to why we are in this hobby in the first place -- the best sound we can get with the money we have available. Yeah, there is a lot of crap associated with this hobby -- so you just have to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Craig I think my last post missed the mark by more than 1/2 but I never claimed to be a writer. I wasn't claiming some of these specialty audio components were bad so much as they are very often designed to outlandish and questionable specifications and consequently overpriced, then sold with dubious claims in an attempt to justify this price. And the case of many of them, it's more a function of how they're marketed and the volumes they're manufactured in than it is in any use of superior materials or better manufacturing techniques. As you've said, there just aren't that many people building capacitors of this type anymore so the likelihood of them being built on the same lines as commodity parts is very high, as is the likelihood the performance is almost identical.

It's not my point reject any and all hi-end components so much as it is to try to do exactly what you say - find the meat and avoid the bones. I'm probably just oversensitive to ordering "the best tasting chicken meat in the world," paying $20 a pound for it, then being sent a bucket of skinny wings with an endorsement that says they'll taste better than any other wings because they were grown on all natural farms, high in the andes, with soothing music played to them though out their scientifically determined optimum length life. Damn, you did all that and all I wanted was decent quality chicken meat? And to make it worse, the meat tastes just like the meat from the local farms I can buy for $1.59 a pound.

In my case, my skepticism is probably caused by spending too many years of trying to engineer to meet specious marketing specifications...

--

Jim

Jim,

Your quoting Dean and addressing me is this a mistake?

Craig

Yep, it sure is a mistake... Trying to do too many things at once... I'll edit it now.

--

Jim

No big deal! I do the same all the time.

[NOSValves]

Dean, "Like Craig, I also have a major issue with this line of reasoning. " The point is what Bob does or does not have in his system is irrelevant for what Craig or yourself are claiming to hear in your system. Re-read my earlier post about why it isn't possible for a 'doubter' to prove a negative. Then reread the post you are questioning and include the next couple of lines..... "It is *always* what those making certain claims bring up. That or they outright call someone deaf. That is *exactly* why the 'doubters' can't prove a negative. Because those making the claims will always fall back to the above position. " Which they will. And there is nothing a doubter can do to prove otherwise. As such what the doubters have or have not isn't an issue. If X had the exact same components as Y then Y could (and likely would) claim that X's room or X's ears are at fault for why they can't hear what Y is claiming. Shawn

Shawn,

No IMHO your very wrong! What Bob has as a source, amplifiers and preamps can have a absolute effect on the out come of trying various components in a crossover. Bob is stating that he uses a switching device to compare these components. Well if his system is rolled off and the frequency extremes are softened its very possible that he and anyone else will not hear a bit of difference switching in different components since most of the diffence is in the extremes. I have no clue what Bob's system consist of and for the darned of me can't understand why he says he can not hear any difference at all, hence my question. I will give an example with my own gear.

I can take a pair of rolled off vintage amps and a pair of flat responding VRD's up stares where I use a rolled off Scott LC21 preamp switch out the amps and hear very little difference. I then can take those same pair of amps downstairs using a Blueberry that has basically flat unaltered frequency response and hear a huge difference. I can also play less then stellar recording in the upstairs softer responding system without much complaint take the same recording downstairs and quickly want to turn it off. The system makes a huge difference in comparisons when the biggest difference is in the frequency extremes.

NOTE there is more to frequency response then actual gross output 20hz to 20khz + - 1db !! You can have the same output across the frequencies and still have softer at the extremes. Just added this to be clear.

Craig

[sfogg]

Craig,

"Yea I can have a discusiong with out hurling insults."

Then do it sometime.

"Your post may not of said "Craig" but it was in reference to what I asked and the entire post was a clever insult. "

Stop reading between the lines and just read what I wrote. You keep trying to infer meaning that isn't there and then use that as an excuse for insulting behavior.

Believe it or not but every post I make isn't about you. I have seen this same discussion (substite wires for capacitors or whatever) hundreds of times online over the last 15 years or so. When I say that is what always comes up I meant it. That is *always* what comes up.

The point you have utterly and completely failed to grasp is that you are not wrong. What Bob has or has not in his system *might* influence his ability to hear the audibility of capacitors. Ditto his ears. On the other hand it *might* not... you could totally be fooling yourself and the reason Bob doesn't hear it is because he can't hear what is in your imaginiation.

That is why what Bob has in his system is irrelevant... we can't make any accurate judgement (not an opinion) about it either way. Maybe it does... maybe it doesn't.... you can't know it until it is proven. The only way to prove it is limiting the ability to hear the differences in capacitors is to prove you can hear the difference in system XYZ but then fail to hear the ability to hear them in Bob's system. That very likely isn't going to happen.

That is *exactly* why it isn't 100% possible for a doubter to prove a negative. Because those making the claim will *ALWAYS* bring up this point and they aren't wrong... that is a possibility no matter how remote.

As such the only way anything can be proven in this type of arguement is for those making the claims to *prove* it.

". So now your going to turn into the lets pick someones grammer apart"

Quote me where I corrected your grammer.....

Shawn

[Deang]

The point is what Bob does or does not have in his system is irrelevant for what Craig or yourself are claiming to hear in your system.

I see, but I wish I didn't. You're statement is of course true, but the issue is not irrelevant for reasons I won't go into.

Dean... they are very often designed to outlandish and questionable specifications and consequently overpriced, then sold with dubious claims in an attempt to justify this price...And the case of many of them, it's more a function of how they're marketed and the volumes they're manufactured in than it is in any use of superior materials or better manufacturing techniques.

Nope, not so. Please do a little research O.K., you're giving me chest pains.

http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php3

http://www.capacitors.com/picking_capacitors/pickcap.htm

http://audience-av.com/on_capacitor_dielectric_material.htm

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/capacitor.html

http://www.faradnet.com/

http://www.designers-guide.org/Modeling/da.pdf

http://www.audience-av.com/Auricap%20Specifications.pdf

As you've said, there just aren't that many people building capacitors of this type anymore so the likelihood of them being built on the same lines as commodity parts is very high, as is the likelihood the performance is almost identical.

Uh, that's not what I said.

[NOSValves]

Shawn,

Okay here is where you took a piece of what I said and twisted out of context. You completely left out what proceeded it. I was analyzing what you said! Bob isn't just stating that only he can't hear the difference but also countless others can't hear any difference what so ever in the same test setup! So to me this isn't down to well maybe Bob is deaf. Which I have never said about anyone! This led to my question.

" Sources, Amps, Preamp's make absolutely no difference in what someone hears or the resolution of there system!"

You just posted "Bob doesn't hear it is because he can't hear what is in your imagination"


To me this is a arrogant thing to say and is very insulting!

You have replied saying reread what I wrote earlier like it means "I Wrote it so it has to be a fact" no it isn't a fact it is your imagination or opinion! This is just your take on the given subject. Face it I and others don't swallow your speal hook line and sinker. Everyone has a right to state what they feel, think or imagine without back door responses ridiculing there take on the subject.

Craig

[sfogg]

"Okay here is where you took a piece of what I said and twisted out of context. You completely left out what proceeded it. I was analyzing what you said! "

No you weren't... you were going off on a tangent trying to argue against a position I wasn't making.

" So to me this isn't down to well maybe Bob is deaf. Which I have never said about anyone!"

I never claimed you did. I said that comes up often in discussions like this... and it does.

"You just posted "Bob doesn't hear it is because he can't hear what is in your imagination"

Actually what I just posted was....

"The point you have utterly and completely failed to grasp is that you are not wrong. What Bob has or has not in his system *might* influence his ability to hear the audibility of capacitors. Ditto his ears. On the other hand it *might* not... you could totally be fooling yourself and the reason Bob doesn't hear it is because he can't hear what is in your imaginiation. "

And that is correct. It might be that Bobs system can't resolve the difference, it might be that you are imagining the difference... it might be both and that someone else actually does hear the difference. Thousands of people think they hear the difference in two pieces of wire. Yet when tested *none* so far can pass the test. What they thought they heard was in their imaginiation. It is called the Placebo effect and documented countless times in numerous fields of study. That you take the possibility of a capacitor acting as a placebo as an insult is your own issue not mine.

"You have replied saying reread what I wrote earlier like it means "I Wrote it so it has to be a fact" no it isn't a fact it is your imagination or opinion!"

That may be how you read it, it is not how I wrote it. I suggested re-reading it because I thought Dean misunderstood what I wrote or missed the connection I was making between the two and didn't want to re-write the same post again trying to better explain it.

Besides, if Dean was offended by it he could tell me that himself.

"This is just your take on the given subject. Face it I and others don't swallow your speal hook line and sinker. Everyone has a right to state what they feel, think or imagine without back door responses ridiculing there take on the subject."

You are shoveling your Avatar kind of deep don't you think? Re-read what you wrote and then take a look in the mirror. There has been someone posting insults and ridicules countless times in numerous threads when someone doesn't agree with them... and gets insulted when someone doesn't agree with them (see above)... but it ain't me.

Shawn