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Take Cornwall Plunge? Objective opinions needed


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I am moving closer and closer towards some sort of horn solution and have been vacillating from Ed Schilling's "The Horn", a Fostex 208Sigma in a Jericho Horn, building some Voight Pipes...or the traditional Cornwalls, of course.

I still sit here with my ProAc Minitowers (which are damn good although a bit problematic with more challenging material and low wattage). I am currently divided between the use of a few tube amps of different character after dumping my last solid state monoblocks a year ago. Besides the beloved EICO HF-81 and an ASUSA EL-34 UL amp, I do most of my listening with a pair of Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs coming in at around 3.5w with the MagneQuest DS-025 transformers.

Every now and then, when the mood strikes, I stare for a bit at the Klipsch Cornwalls online; indeed, that Mitja Borko review of the Cornwall IIs is almost too much food for thought. Well, now there is a pair of Cornwall I's within driving distance... making them a bit harder to ignore. This speaker has always intriqued me.

I need some loons on here with SET and Cornwall experience that also have had exposure to other dynamic speakers of fine pedigree. Ultimately, listening is the real answer, but before I set out on the 12 hours of round trip hell, I was hoping for some thoughts.

Are these beasts going to have too much blare? Brightness? Harshness? I know the dynamics will be there in spades but was looking for other thoughts on the matter. Will they work in a medium sized room? And on a technical note, these Cornwalls are factory finished black over birch. Has anyone on here attempted to REMOVE the paint to reveal the wood?

Musical tastes range from Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Ornette Coleman, Bill Evans, Erik Dolphy, Sarah Vaughan, Billie Holiday to the multitude of Independent label offerings from my sordid years in bands and a college radio station. In other words, from great stuff to complete racket...

Any and all info/insight is gladly appreciated.

kh

http://12.16.160.65/temp/corndogs.jpg

f>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 10-06-2001 at 09:19 AM

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KH,

The Cornwall is an outstanding loudspeaker that does everything well. The sound is full, dynamic, midrange foward (as in the vocalist is easily heard, but not blaring), broad soundstage, almost mellow in the highs (I would not consider these a "bright speaker").

Everybody loves Cornwalls who own them and will rarely, if ever complain about them. A VERY well balanced speaker. I've owned many speakers. Many that excited me early on, wore thin after a while. I loved my Cornwalls the day I got them 10 years ago and still smile EVERY time I listen to them.

Concerning rear loaded horns, voight pipes, etc., I recently built a pair of Buschhorn rear loaded horns using the excellent Fostex FE83 driver. The sound from these speakers is excellent with superb detail and imaging. With corner loading, bass is surprisingly good, with the sub, real nice. A great speaker for three piece band jazz recordings. They have a horn sound which is not unlike a Klipsch sound. (If you build a pair of single driver speakers, high frequency extension is the tough part, so use a small driver, a big horn, and a sub - if needed).

However, before you get too excited, my Buschhorns are what I consider an ideosyncratic speaker. It has low power handing and ALL of these type designs have various response peaks - which means with some music they sound great, but with other music they can sound remarkably lackluster. Great fun to build, talk about and listen to, but I definitely would not recommend them as a primary speaker. Better for the "other listening room."

I had my Buschhorns on top of my Cornwalls the other night, running along with the good ole M&K sub (we turn the sub up just enough to seamlessly blend with the mains - no wall cracking stuff). My brother and I were amazed at the great sound - especially with Diana Krall's "Stepping Out." We had a great time and marveled at the FE83 driver coupled to the six foot folded horn. After a long while, we hooked up the mighty Cornwalls again (we're in a 20' x 30' room with cathedral ceilings). When we we fired up the Cornwalls, it was like tidal wave of crisp, clean dynamic sound - WHAAAM! The rear loaded horns were nice, but the Cornwalls sounded like a live band. My brother I both were once again awed by the sound of the mighty Cornwalls (Had mine 10 years, he's had his Cornwalls about 2 - and we're still amazed, often). Funny, while listening to the Buschhorns, my brother said,"you know, in some ways these speakers sound as good as the Cornwalls." After I fired up the Cornwalls and we listened to a couple of songs he remarked "nothing sounds better than the Cornwalls."

I guess my recommendation is to get Cornwalls for your mains and then build you a pair of voight pipes, et cetera to play around with.

Anyway, as you can gather, I like my Cornwalls - just trying to let you in on some of the joy they've brought me. Hope this helps.

Andy

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Thank you KG,

If you sand the black off, youll still wind up with deep grains in the wood, you might not want to do that!!

I own 2 pair of cornwalls, its a listening expierence!!

If you get them, rewire the speakers inside the box, use better copper wire!!

KG, did you ever do yours?

Regards Jim

PS, odds and mods, (cornwall hotwired)

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Welcom to the BB and Cornwall Klub(even if you don't have em yet)

Also high from a fellow NC Klipscher.

I bought my '81 Cornwalls almost 2 months ago.We listened to them powered by Antique Sound Labs MG SI 15 DT-S 5wpc intergated amp.

Sound?Wonderful.They were in a large open basement.Don't remember exact size,15 X 20 or so.

The little amp was magical,but not enough juice to do justice.Started to distort at about 95+dB.Untill then they were great sounding.We didn't try them in the 15wpc mode.They are now in my bedroom(not the amp)where they are 5'apart and we listen 8 1/2 feet back.

You need to go after them.The price is right and the leaves are turningcwm35.gif

Safe trip

------------------

Main HT:'77 Klipschorns w/ALKs,

'75 Heresy center,modified with,K-Horn sqauwker & AA network.

KSP-S6 at sides

2 KSP-S6's rear.

Denon AVR-3801

2 Denon POA-2800 200X2

1 driving the Horns

1 driving the bi-wired Heresy center.

2 DIY 12"4ohm subs,Carver A500x 400 watts per ch.feed.

1 12" powered sub(behind the couch)feed from the surrounds pre-outs.

Sony DVP-C650D.

Dishnetwork Echostar 4700 w/DD

JVC S7600U S-VHS

Pioneer CDL-D501 laser

Music in "Direct"only!

DH Labs T-14 speaker wire to the front 3.

Room size;15.5 X 25' opening into dining room.

Old RCA 52"RPTV w/matching cabinets

Bed room HT:

KSB 2.1 mains,SC-1,SS-1's,2 SW 8 II subs.

Cornwall Is for music only

Denon AVR-2800,

Dishnetwork,Sony SLV-975HF VCR,Panasonic DVD-RV31.

27"RCA

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Originally posted by mobile homeless:

Are these beasts going to have too much blare? Brightness? Harshness? I know the dynamics will be there in spades but was looking for other thoughts on the matter. Will they work in a medium sized room? And on a technical note, these Cornwalls are factory finished black over birch. Has anyone on here attempted to REMOVE the paint to reveal the wood?

QUOTE]

With tubes and some SS,no to the Brightness and Harshness!

My bedroom is 12 1/2 X 21 feet.

And I agree with what Jim said about the finish.

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KH,

One last thing, I've used my Cornwalls in various size rooms, large to small, and have sounded quite good in all of them. From my listening experience, corner loading is probably the #1 thing you can do to squeeze performance/sound out of the Cornwalls. My preference for Cornwall room size would be about 17' x 20' with the speakers corner loaded on the short wall (each squawker pointing at an ear). My last listening room was a little too small, current living room is a wee bit too big for ideal performance. Still no complaints here. Rear loaded horns definitely sound better in a big room to me. Also, I've seen Cornwalls in black, and when cleaned up they really look classy.

Jim,

I was thinking about you whilst writing my first post, and knew you'd show up.(!!!!) I wired a big ole pair of Bozaks I own with Monster cable (pain in the neck) and after the effort, I couldn't hear the difference, so I'm a little reticent about getting out the good ole soldering iron again. However, nice, clean job on yours - I was admiring it on your other thread.

Warm, happy regards,

Andy

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Mobile---I recently heard those so-called "The Horns" and they were possibly the worst speakers I ever heard, terrible. It ain't a horn, it's a direct radiator with a little, very little, rear horn-loading of the woofer. These goofy little Voight pipes and rear-loaded Fostexes and Radio Shacks have nothing in common with a manly speaker like the Cornwall with it's 15" woofer and compression driver mids and highs. 4" direct radiators sound bad, putting them in a Voight pipe or midget rear "horn" isn't gonna' make an inherantly bad speaker good. Do it right or not at all, get the Cornwalls or some other good REAL horn rig. Or Lowthers, Lowthers are good, lots of these single-driver guys are trying to do a Lowtherlike thing on the cheap, it don't work. There's a reason Lowthers are expensive and need big cabinets.

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Tom and others,

My rear loaded Buschhorns sound quite good (for what they are) and have amazed a bunch of people. FYI, I built them only as an academic excercise - my wife and I were surprised when they actually sounded good. I didn't even finish the cabinets before hooking them up because if they sounded bad I was planning to unceremoniously pitch them in the trash (I would have saved the drivers though). I'm no "audiophile" and don't gravitate towards cult type equipment - just thought they looked kinda neat and were easy to build. I wanted to hear a pair, so I just built some (not like you can go to your local HiFi shop for a listen).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if every rear loaded horn, voight pipe, cult speaker in the whole world sounds terrible, mine sound good.

Anyway, no match for the Cornwalls. Cornwalls are brutes and make a great set of main speakers. Still theres no sin in with piddling around the shop with an "acedemic excercise."

By the way, have you guys read the "Where did the love go?" post?

Smiling,

Andy

This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 10-06-2001 at 05:18 PM

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First of all, I would really like to thank Klipschguy, Jim, and Steve for taking the time to reply. You gave me some more solid info to go on, especially Andy, who gave some nice comparisons with some other single driver horn options. Well-done.

After inhabiting the Audio Asylum (the SET Asylum is now totally a DIY Forum) for the last few years, it's nice to get a fresh perspective here.

One of the great aspects of the ProAc line in general is their natural and musical performance; they really work wonders with tubes and are extremely coherent speakers. I am just looking to gain that immediacy and dynamics with well-made horns, as well as the 100dB or so efficiency, surely a great benefit, especially with single ended triodes. I have been wanting to taste SET amps via horns ever since I first got my Moondogs.

If you were to compare your Cornwalls to a fine cone speaker like the ProAc, what would you say are the main differences? Would it be this immediacy and liveness to the sound? I guess one would lose the imaging from the narrow baffle speakers such as these ProAcs...

Andy, I noticed you mention your M&K sub. Do you feel you need the sub to be really satisfied with the sound? I have never really been a fan of subs that much since I feel they slow the music down a bit.

Have most of you performed the standard mods I read about for your Cornwalls?

Again, thanks for all the replies here!

kh

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"Will they work in a medium sized room?" The Cornwall works fine in a medium sized room. "Are these beasts going to have too much blare? Brightness? Harshness?" Garbage in, garbage out. The better the recording, the better they sound. For typical recordings that sound like an icepick through the forehead a DBX 3BX (the original one) works wonders. The 'horn glare' is actually compression. Having said all that 3.5W isn't enough power even on Klipsch speakers. Unless you are into Muzak. Of course if you are acclimated to ProAc these will be an ear opener.

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KH,

As you know, the bigger your room, the more air you have to move to reproduce bass. Look at the sound systems in big churches and see how many square inches of woofers they use to reproduce bass (a bunch). The engineers designing a big church can't just say "we need good bass to reproduce those organ notes, so we better use 1 pair of Cornwalls." A system has to be matched to the room.

I happily used my Cornwalls until a month ago without a sub and you could definitely "feel the bass," but the low, low bass could use just a little more oomph, so I bought a M&K sub (internally amplified, acoustic suspension 12" model). The Cornwalls are run full range, the sub is tuned to its lowest crossover cut off point, the volume on the M&K is brought up to the just the level where it BLENDS with music (which is quite low I might add). On some songs with little low bass content the sub barely plays, however, with some of these new recordings, with super low bass tones, you can really feel it. NEVER does the sub draw attention to itself, nor overshadow the Cornwalls. Bass is clean and tight. Sound is effortless.

John Warren once said in a post that producing good sound is all about "moving air" - some definite truth there.

Happy regards,

Andy

This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 10-07-2001 at 07:36 AM

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The idea of more watts equaling better sound is something that I have more or less abandoned long ago. If anything, I find it almost the exact opposite, depending, of course, on the speaker load. But given a rather benign impedance within a given speaker, I find that lower wattage amplifiers tend to sound better; they are just more musical, open, unfettered, and tend to convey the timing and life to a greater degree.

I think this is one of the most misunderstood aspects in all of audio, carried on to a great degree by myth and the mainstream audio press. If anything, I would have thought that many Heritage line Klipsch owners would be aware of this very aspect (especially those that covet the older lines). The idea that the only type of music to be played on a 98-100dB (benign impedance) system with a low watt amp is MUZAK is really absurd, and shows the lack of experience with high quality, no negative feedback, low watt amplification with excellent output transformers and power supplies.

I have either heard or owned most of the top solid state behemoths at one time or another, including Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Threshold, Classe, B&K, Aragon, and McCormick. Of course, there are some things these amps do very well (all those are not equal, obviously). But after you get past the fireworks, and you concentrate on the amp's ability to actually play music, you begin to notice a certain innate quality these amps lack. They do very little to actually draw you into the music. You find yourself listening TO the sound of the music, and perhaps admiring that sound, but the true emotion of the music just does not come across, especially when the amps are idling along in the 1 watt range, a range that the higher powered solid state devices are not designed for. I sold my last high powered solid state monoblocks over a year ago as I found my little all tube, 14w EICO HF-81 integrated from 1959 could convey more of a sense of the soul of the music than my 200wpc B&K M200 Sonata MOSFET monoblocks. Ditto with the Bryston 4B-ST 250wpc amp, surely a fine amp in its own right, but just not there in conveying the harmonic richness of a tenor sax, female voice, or even the Fender Stratocaster of Jimi Hendrix. Yes, on initial listening, the Krells and Mark Levinson's really do appeal...but to live with these creatures on a long term basis, really listening to the music, you feel something missing, perhaps not if heard alone, where the listener unaware of the alternative, but in a side by side comparison with a quality tube amp, the results become readily apparent.

So don't be too quick to jump in the more watts = better sound camp before being exposed to great low watt tube designs with top notch power supplies through speakers that present an easy load. And try to drop the low watt stereotypes that ride along with that brigade.

kh

s>

s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

ProAc Mini Towers

Alternate System:

EICO HF-81

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7a

f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 10-07-2001 at 11:28 AM

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Lordy lordy lordy I am to new to this hobby to understand most of what your guys are talking about in regards to different amps speakers etc. but I will say that the Cornwalls rock (my room, my house, and heck even the neighbors form time to time :-)!! If you have a chance to get some I certainly would. Even if you do not like the sound they are easy enough to resell.

Laters,cwm9.gif

------------------

FOR SALE OR TRADE COMPLETE R*3 SYSTEM FOR 3 HERESY'S

Main System -

Cornwalls (L/R main)

RC-3

RS-3's (white)

SVS 20-39CS

Harman Kardon AVR 510

Hafler P505 (running sub)

ProMedia 4.2 v400 for PC

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KH,

thanks a lot for your last message. I have not owned any of those super expensive ss amps you've mentioned, but one of our local dealers has a permanent Mark Levinson set-up in his shop (and also one by Accuphase). All quite expensive and surely not bad (though I find the typical Accuphase 'sound' hard to swallow) but like you I feel never drawn into the music. Whatever it is that they cannot do? A similar thing happened when I auditioned a 'small' new McIntosh power amp: detailed, clear but somehow dead. That I nevertheless ended up with a ss amp has to do with the fact that I am no tube expert and finding a really trustworthy technician isn't that easy (though a good MC 225 from a trustworthy seller I wouldn't pass). So I ended up with a McIntosh pre-power combo from the early/mid '70s. Together with my Khorns (and REL sub) I am in paradise, especially since I got Al Klappenberger's crossovers. I undertsand that he has also developed such a unit for the Cornwalls and I strongly recommend the upgrade if you decide for them. (My recommendation is only based on his Khorn crossover, but I expect that the one for the Cornwalls will be equally breathtaking).

Wolfram

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Wolfram, thanks for the comments and suggestions concerning the Al Klappenberger crossovers. I actually looked into these online the other day; they do seem nicely built. However, since I am running the 3.5 watt Moondog 2A3 SET amps, I would like to keep it around 8 ohms of nominal impedance and since Al's crossovers move it to 4 ohms, I might just modify them with Alpha-Core inductors and perhaps some Audio Note oil caps, depending (I have not ruled out Al, however). I am definitely going to upgrade the internal wiring and the exterior binding posts.

Then again, I have not even purchased these speakers yet and here I am already planning on everything from the rope caulk for the horns to wiring mods!

As for your decision to go with solid state, I really think you should look into a tube amp as well, just to see how it differs. I think you might be surprised; indeed, you may never look back! As for repairs, you will be amazed at just how simple tube amps are... This has much to do with how much of a superior amplification device it is (in many ways) over solid state. There is very little to go wrong. One develops a great connection with the gear as well when changing tubes or tube rolling, which can bring about different qualities in the sound.

Hopefully, one day you will get to hear your beloved Cornwalls with some valves driving them - Frankly, it's what ole Paul Klipsch had in mind when designing the Heritage and Classic series. As I said, in many ways, I actually prefer my vintage EICO amp to the $2500 Bryston; it just makes more music....

kh

f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 10-09-2001 at 03:29 AM

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Cornwalls and bass? Hell yes! Smile.gif Here's the only way I can truly describe how much bass they can put out ...You know how your voice sounds when talking into a fan? My 9 year old 100 WPC Sony reciever set between 3 and 4 (it goes to 10) hooked to the cornwalls (series 1) with 12 guage radio shack wire sounds the same way!

It's intense!

I'm a rookie at HT obviously, but I can vouch for these 20+ year old speakers.

------------------

?

This message has been edited by BigBusa on 10-09-2001 at 11:55 AM

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kh,

thanks for your comments. Glad to see that you don't rule out Al's work. I have to say that I am still under some kind of 'shock' having installed his x-overs last Friday. Reproduced music has become so 'real' that when I open my eyes I am surprised NOT to see The Boston Symphony or Diana Krall (etc.) in my living room.

As for my decision to use a solid state combo it was simply a matter of coincidence. I actually had (still have) a tube preamp in combination with some German ss power amp. The combo was fine, but hearing and seeing the McIntosh gear simply made me fall in love with it. Now I have been told that the 225 is an excellent amp for Khorns (and other speakers) and one day I shall certainly try to get hold of one (once my bank account looks less bleak and I have tried a different sub). So for the time being my amps are fine (especially as old ss MC gear seems to be not too far from the sound of their tube models). But even if this is not correct and I am really missing something substantial, how do I know that any tubes fitted to vintage gear are still fine and where do I get replacement tubes from (and which brands)? Quite a few 'serious' questions for a tube newbie.

BTW: go and get those Cornwalls (or some Heritage speakers) and there'll be no looking back, ever!

Wolfram

This message has been edited by dubai2000 on 10-09-2001 at 05:10 PM

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I cannot stress enough the difference between a good tube amp and a good solid state amp. Both given equal footing, I have found the well designed tube amp to deliver a more harmonically rich presentation that draws you into the music. The old idea of rolled off highs and super mushy lows is really a moot point given the proper speakers, good output transformers (the heart of the tube amp), and a well designed power supply. As I said, you owe it to yourself to hear a good valve amp.

As for the condition of tubes in a vintage unit, there are several ways to go about this. First, if the seller or place where you get the amp has any knowledge of tube audio, rack their brain! ASK QUESTIONS! Learn as much as you can about the amp. Many times, the seller will know the condition of the tubes if you are lucky. It all depends on if you opt for the eBay gamble (I have been VERY lucky here and gotten some great gear off eBay) or scan the ads at AudiogoN. Indeed, I got my Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs from an AudiogoN sale. Everything went great. I got some extra tubes in the deal as well.

Regardless, you are going to want some backup tubes are replacements. In addition, I mentioned tube rolling..this is a great chance to really move your amp's sound toward your own tastes. Where can one get these tubes? Here are several good links for NOS and new tubes:

Tube World

http://www.tubeworld.com/

One of my favorite places for NOS tubes - they have just about everything there and the page lists it ALL! Much better selection that most of the other online shops. Very trustworthy as well!

Ned at Triode Electronics

http://store.yahoo.com/triodeel/tubes.html

Ned has some of the best prices on new and NOS tubes for most amps. While NOS is the BEST way to go, the price is too much for many to justify. I believe in both camps; nice to know some new options exist without breaking the bank. I think ole Ned still comes in second to Tube World but he has good prices and advice.

Upscale Audio

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/rare/inventory.htm

The better selections of NOS tubes but a bit pricey. Kevin Deal claims he tests all his tubes and matches them to a more exacting standard than anyone. Perhaps, it's true. Regardless, he has some great beauties if you are prepared to PAY $$$.

Tube Store

http://www.thetubestore.com/

A nice site and clean layout. They have a good selection of newer stock tubes but not the best prices in the world. Still, they are dependable and have the cleanest site.

There are some other options and even more places online for tubes. Regardless, owning a tube amp now is about the best it's been YEARS. I fell in love all over again with tubes and sold my last solid state amp with the belief I would never own another SS amp again. I dont see any real change here in the near future!

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 10-10-2001 at 12:38 AM

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quote:

Originally posted by mobile homeless:

...Both given equal footing, I have found the well designed tube amp to deliver a more harmonically rich presentation that draws you into the music. The old idea of rolled off highs and super mushy lows is really a moot point given the proper speakers, good output transformers (the heart of the tube amp), and a well designed power supply. As I said, you owe it to yourself to hear a good valve amp.

KH: Your statment, "I have found the well designed tube amp to deliver a more harmonically rich presentation that draws you into the music", perfectly describes my experience when I first connected a tube amp (Audio Research VT-50) into my system. Likewise, I did not experience the tube amp complaints of mushy bass or rolled off highs. Tubes have given me more music enjoyment! I think I can say I'm a tube convert.

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Mobile---I think the most important thing is to use good horn speakers regardless of the type of amp. I've heard horns sound great with both SS and tubes, I never heard a cone-dome speaker rig I liked regardless of the amplifier used. I wouldn't enjoy listening to your Pro-Acs even if God himself built the amp. :-)

My best friend drives his tractrix-mod Cornwalls with a garage sale Yamaha receiver and the rig sounds great. I suppose this depends on what qualities in the music you're listening for; the unmatched dynamics and clarity of a good horn, it's "liveness", are present whatever kind of amp is used.

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