Small...Large 5.1...6.1???

[Skidmarks]

Hey guys , the newness of the system has finally wore off and Im getting the itch again (my wife is very afraid) I am still quite the amature.

Anyhow, I have been trying to improve my HT through its settings and speaker placement. I have always used the Yammys YPAO mic to set the system up, but I feel like im robbing myself of a better understanding of my system. I do not know why my rears (RS-7s) are set to small? I never seem to have the center(RC-7) at the right level to get the dialogue loud enough to hear whispers, but not have to turn the volume down for an explosion. Then theres the sub which has adjustments on the rear but I believe uses the recievers crossover. My next purchase is going to be a middle rear to bump the HT up to 6.1 , and another sub. I will probably get a duplicate sub, but I am a bit unsure of the rear speaker?

I have been reading through these forums for hours now, because I always try to learn as much as I can before I ask any dumb questions, lol. But honestly an explanation of crossover levels and speaker size , and a recomendation for a rear would be appreciated.

[colterphoto1]

go to 2ch woodog listening school, where I describe my setup process. For your system, I'd set all speakers to large, set them up carefully, run the YPAO, then manually tweak the levels to your satisfaction.

Michael

[MrMcGoo]

I respectfully disagree with Michael.

THX (Lucas Film when the research was done) recommends that all speakers be set as small. This is particularly true when a receiver is powering speakers as opposed to separate amps.

Bass frequencies require much more power that higher frequencies. Also, bass cancellations take place when multiple drivers at less than ideal locations reproduce bass. It is better to have a killer sub reproduce lower frequencies. Serious sub amps start at 500 wpc.

If you want to upgrade equipment and have a good coner, get the RSW-15 or the dual THX Ultra2 subs. You will have higher quality bass.

The tricks to get better dialog and stop running the volume control up and down are to set speakers to small and use dynamic range control on your receiver. It may be called "midnight" or dynamic range control. Be advides that THX post processing automatically turns off dynamic range control.

Bill

[JeffDurbin]

I agree with McGoo.

The other thing to consider is room acoustics. If you've used an SPL meter (or the receiver's auto setup) to make sure that all channels are properly set up for volume and the dialogue is too low compared to the bass then that's a classic sign that you have room problems.

Go to avsforum.com and check out the audio theory and setup chat area. It may be that investing a couple hundred dollars in bass traps in the corners of your room make a bigger difference than thousands of dollars of electronics.

[lavinius]

take that Yamaha mic and throw it a long long long way away from you! now you'll feel better!

Tools you need: SPL meter and tape measure

Factory reset your Yamaha receiver, i think you press Straight when it's off then press the ON/off button but i could be wrong as I haven't done it for a long time

Now mound your spl meter where your ears would be on a tripod, position your speakers so they "hit" the spl meter and position yourself somehow so that you can read the spl meter but don't interfeere with the sound waves much.

Go to the onscrereen setup menu and push that hissing test tone out and push up the volume until you reach about 80db on the spl meter then adust all your speakers to 80db

Now get a tape measure and measure the distance from the voice coil/cone to the spl meter and put them in the yamaha setup

Have all your speakers setup to large

Use the EQ on the center channel to match it with the rest of your system and you might want to give it a slight boost around voice levels

Setup your sub crossover point anywhere between 45 and 55 hz, that depends really on how smooth you want the transition to be, don't go over 55-60 and don't invert anything just yet

Pun on your fav DVD and enjoy ... now you can fine tune your sub .. the rest should be spot on

[klipschster23]

hmmm...I would'nt take the advice of THX Lucas..being a klipschster I want heavy hard hitting speakers all the way around..i never go small..smalls for Bose lovers..Set to LArge always and tweak the volume and tone levels.if u have a good sub the lows are gonna be there no matter what. Furthermore..its always best to set the sub for the lower frequencies...Closely listen and dial it all in listening to a good movie.. im sure if u take this advice you will like it better if your a true klipschster.....Monty

[ygmn]

I respectfully disagree with Michael.

THX (Lucas Film when the research was done) recommends that all speakers be set as small. This is particularly true when a receiver is powering speakers as opposed to separate amps.

Bass frequencies require much more power that higher frequencies. Also, bass cancellations take place when multiple drivers at less than ideal locations reproduce bass. It is better to have a killer sub reproduce lower frequencies. Serious sub amps start at 500 wpc.

If you want to upgrade equipment and have a good coner, get the RSW-15 or the dual THX Ultra2 subs. You will have higher quality bass.

The tricks to get better dialog and stop running the volume control up and down are to set speakers to small and use dynamic range control on your receiver. It may be called "midnight" or dynamic range control. Be advides that THX post processing automatically turns off dynamic range control.

Bill

agree.....

unless you have a perfect room...which very very few have..

the SPL meter is the best thing for you .....

good luck

[MrMcGoo]

George Lucas wants movie patrons to hear and see what the director intended both at home and in commercial theaters. THX was created to achieve that goal for ordinary folks.

If you are a true expert in acoustics and engineering, then feel free to disregard THX recommendations. Personally, I like to hear movies and music as close to the dubbing stage or mixing room as I can get with the exception of bass. I run bass frequencies a little hot, but attempt to get good definition just a tad louder.

Many listeners do not know what bass should sound like and frequently think that more volume is better even if poorly defined. This philosophy gives a whole new meaning to the term boom-box.

Bill

[Fish]

I've seen this debate since way back.If the mixer/producer sends a 50hz

signal to my right rear speaker why would I want to cut it off at

80hz?Especially since my speakers can reproduce it and my amps can

power it?If I have a front speaker capable of 40hz why would I cut it

at 80?If the guys send a 40hz signal to my R/L speaker I want to hear

it.But,thats not saying its the right or wrong way,just my way.

[Petrol]

Holy Bejeez!!

easy on us ole dial-up users eh? (resize them huge PICs down to something that I can actually download in time to view sometime tonight []

[Skidmarks]

Thanks for the great ideas, but I was very curious what is actually happening when I make the switch from small to large? Is that just a change in crossover frequency? I have a rectangle shaped room, about 23deep, by 16wide, but it is 75 % open in the back, I am working on ways to close that off but for now it just has to stay open.

[hillbilly]

I have an RX-V1500. Setting speakers to small is just a high pass at 100hz. I use it on my center and rears since they are only 5.25's. My center is getting ready to be a KV-4 though (yay!!) an then it's going to be set to large.

I like the sub set to 80 for movies and 120 for music. Somebody's going to blast me for that on here but that's how I like it. With a sealed box it doesn't get out of control.

[MrMcGoo]

The small setting engages the crossover for those speakers so set. The crossover is NOT a brick wall. It has a slope and should be set one full octave above the bottom frequency that speaker can produce. The slope of the crossover allows the mains and the sub to blend properly.

Reseach shows that frequencies below 100 Hz cannot be localized by most listeners. THX recommends a crossover of 80 Hz which works well with RF-7s. If you have a suitable (big) amp, the RF-7s can be crossed as low as 50 Hz.

Trying to get 50 Hz from the mains may result in less bass or muddy bass. If you haven't listened to a properly setup home theater, you do not know what you are missing and what is being included that should not be there. A crossover of 50 Hz is an invitation for doppler distortion from a driver that is trying to reproduce 50 Hz and 1000 Hz at the same time.

I get the best sound (dialog) from my RC-7 set at 100 Hz. Unfortunately, my crossover is global, so 80 Hz is a good compromise for all of my speakers.

Bill

[t-man]

I agree with Mr. McGoo. I know it's hard to set those big ol Klipsches to small - it's a psychological thing. Hell, My KGs are rated down to like 30hz or something like that. STill, the SVS can do better. I do notice that when I set my mains to large or turn off the sub completely, even at calibrated hot sub levels, I get LOUDER bass without the sub. Yes, it's louder b/c my KGs are boomy - likely due to room response. The Sub tames it better and the bass is better, even though it's not as loud.

Believe me, I have had many explosion in the back of my room, and with my sub in the front corner I certainly still believe it's all coming from the rear! -yes, all my speakers are set to small.

[colterphoto1]

for me it's not an efficiency measure that I set all my CW's to LARGE, I like the localization that the sounds come from where they're supposed to PER THE DIRECTOR. You aren't going to blow up your RF7's by putting them to large, remember, all the really nasty LF tones are routed by the director to the .1 channel. That's what it's there for.

This practice buying huge speakers and setting to small is ridiculous in my mind. But go ahead and have EVERY single note under 80 Hz (we're talking two octaves) go to that box in the corner.

Heck, I even reroute my LFE channel back into my L+R so any .1 sound comes from the entire front wall. I have a KSW15 and no one has ever complained about lack of bass in my system. Because I use LARGE speakers all around.

Now if you had Quintets or even Heresy all around I'd side with the SMALL crowd. RF7's NO WAY. Why didn't you just save your money and buy RF35 if you're going to cross them over at 80 HZ anyway.

And who made THX GOD of the setup?

Michael

[hillbilly]

I like the YPAO mic. I think when it gets done the sound is warmer and it compensates for room acoustics. My right main is next to a wall. Without YPAO it sounds louder, afterward the sound moves back the the center.

Mcgoo,

You went way over my head with doppler distortion. I'm curious if you feel like sharing.

I have heard when dis-similar drivers produce the same frequencies the result can be less bass. I knew a smart guy a long time ago when I was into car stuff who talked me out of using 10" woofers in conjunction with 12". Since the 5.1 soundtracks are divided up then wouldn't you think that most of the low rumbling comes from the .1 and is not sent to the mains? That is, as long as you don't set LFE OUT to BOTH.

When the speakers are set to large then there's no high pass at all, right? When you talk about setting the mains as low as 50hz then I'm assuming you're talking about a subsonic filter, which as far as I know isn't included with my receiver.

[Skidmarks]

I wish I had a neighbor or friend that enjoys the extreme HT experience like so many of us do here. I havent had the pleasure of listening to a high end system to compare and learn from. I go to Tweeter from time to time and try to compare there higher end gear. Every time I ask a question here I learn so much , I will spend some time trying out a few variables that were shown here and see what my ears tell me.

Oh yeah one more thing, i have my RS7s in the rear corners at the cieling angled down towards the middle of the room. If I were to add 2 more speakers, say like 2 RB-75s would it be correct to move the RS7s to more of a mid room position , and place the 75s in the rear?

Thanks for the info.

[MrMcGoo]

Mcgoo,

You went way over my head with doppler distortion. I'm curious if you feel like sharing.

I have heard when dis-similar drivers produce the same frequencies the result can be less bass. I knew a smart guy a long time ago when I was into car stuff who talked me out of using 10" woofers in conjunction with 12". Since the 5.1 soundtracks are divided up then wouldn't you think that most of the low rumbling comes from the .1 and is not sent to the mains? That is, as long as you don't set LFE OUT to BOTH.

When the speakers are set to large then there's no high pass at all, right? When you talk about setting the mains as low as 50hz then I'm assuming you're talking about a subsonic filter, which as far as I know isn't included with my receiver.

Doppler distortion aka frequency modulation distortion happens when one driver tries to produce a higher and lower frequency at the same time. Paul Klipsch claimed that as long as the woofer excursion was less than a sixteenth of an inch it would not be a problem. Horn loaded bass keeps the excursion below a sixteenth of an inch. Reference bass is not horn loaded.

Imagine the woofer going in and out an eigth of an inch with an explosion while a male actor is speaking. The woofer is trying to go in and out at 500 Hz while it is going in and out at 50 Hz at the same time. You get the same effect as a police siren going away from you; there is a "smearing" of the sound.

If you let the sub handle the explosion, you still hear the explosion, but the voice is more easily understood. If you want more bang, just turn up the sub. It will still appear to be coming from your mains or surrounds.

Bill

[colterphoto1]

George Lucas wants movie patrons to hear and see what the director intended both at home and in commercial theaters. THX was created to achieve that goal for ordinary folks.

If you are a true expert in acoustics and engineering, then feel free to disregard THX recommendations. Personally, I like to hear movies and music as close to the dubbing stage or mixing room as I can get with the exception of bass. I run bass frequencies a little hot, but attempt to get good definition just a tad louder.

Many listeners do not know what bass should sound like and frequently think that more volume is better even if poorly defined. This philosophy gives a whole new meaning to the term boom-box.

Bill

Thanks for clarifying Bill.

THX works well for 'ordinary folks', folks that might not have a truly awesome sound system fully capable of reproducing THX certified volume and response through all speakers. I think that many of us here are experts in acoustics and engineering. To each his own. I prefer the directionality of having the notes come from where they were placed in the mix. I feel that this is even more critical in the home environment where acoustics or sub placement might not give the best 'playback as the engineer designed it'. So for most folks without extraordinary systems, setting all speakers to Small and allowing the sub to take care of .1 LFE soundtrack and all 5 channels < 80hz might be the way to go.

I'm not after max volume, in fact probably listen to 2ch and HT at lower volumes than most. (I sometimes go to the kiddie matinees when the volume is more reasonable)

I am well aware of musical, well defined bass versus boom box sound. That is why I have 4x 15" CW woofers surrounding me. In fact, I think most people have the sub cranked to much, and many inexpensive subs tend to be 'one note wonders' with very peaky bass. So in that case, I'd rather have more of the range coming from my main system.

To each his own. That's why the systems have switches and controls on them.

Michael

[Seadog]

"A crossover of 50 Hz is an invitation for doppler distortion from a driver that is trying to reproduce 50 Hz and 1000 Hz at the same time."

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That can never happen with Heritage. I run large with my Cornwall / Heresy setup. I wouldn't know from personal experience, but when using Reference with a x-over point at such a high frequency, perhaps small is the best route.