Small...Large 5.1...6.1???

[Hunt]

Put those rf-7's on small and crossed at 60. Had some friends over last night to watch Polar Express. Knew the train was rolling-in and cranked it up. Sounded like a freight train just ran into the house! Very detailed sound. The galley had speaker envy. One guy said: " my speakers don't soud like that at home." ...Nice to be a Klipsch owner...I may just leave them on small. Sounded pretty darn good.

[Skidmarks]

Speaking of movies with sweet sound effects, I watched "The Island" last night and was very impressed with the sound effects , not a bad movie either. I am very happy with the new settings , and plan to keep those for movies. Every so often I feel like the bass is kicking in too soon, or that there is a low tone when I didnt expect there to be one, but I may just need to adjust my sub manually.

[MrMcGoo]

Skidmarks,

You are hearing what is in the movie, if it is "too soon." Only adjust the volume if the total effect is too loud or very out of proportion.

The proper setting allow you to hear things that you never knew where there.

Bill

[hillbilly]

Subwoofer phase matters as well. I put my sub 180d out of phase and it made a huge difference. When it was in phase it was obvious that the mains and the sub were cancelling one another. Depends on your distance from the sub if the low frequencies from the mains reach you at the same time.

[HTADDICT]

I had to dig this one up and put in another post because it has been one of those topics that I've been thinking about since I first read it here. When I first posted I had a couple of beers in me and had some pretty strong opinions on just where george lucas could put his thx, while I still feel that way about any big marketing ploy, I am coming around to that way of thinking due to some system upgrades. I now have six rf-7's, 2 rb10's, and 2 rf-3 ii's all employed for hometheater duty in my setup........and now I just added 2 svs pc-ultra's that are being controlled by the velodyne sms-1.

Before I had the very capable dual subs, and all of my other current speakers, I do believe setting them to large was not such a big deal, I was getting good bang in the right places, sounded good enough I suppose. NOW when I look around at six rf-7's and those 2 big subs I think about things like standing waves, bass boost due to room acoustics, nulls that I can't get rid of, room reflections, and the simple fact that what I am trying to acheive is the best, most accurate sound from the listening position. I bought the RF-7's because I liked the fact that they sounded good from the bottom octave to the top, setting them to small or crossing them over at 80 doesn't mean that they will sound any less good at 80 and above, if anything they will sound better due to the fact that my receiver doesn't have to strain to supply the subwoofer effect that they are capable of and a little less cabinent resonace can't be a bad thing either. For that matter they can be a pretty demanding speaker, and for home theater (not 2 channel listening) the 80hz and up is all anyone can really hear reliably anyway, and that is what home theater surround channels are meant to do, steer sound in the right directions! This has become even more evident now that I bought the velodyne sms-1, it's one thing to talk about room acoustics, nulls, standing waves, room reflections, phase, boost in certain hz regions, cubic space the sub has to fill, etc.etc. It's another thing to see it on screen how opening a door can totally change your response curve.

What I'm getting at is, the whole point of buying the velodyne sms-1 was to get the most and best sounding slam I could possably get out of my svs pc-ultra's, and to visually see it onscreen that not only what I was hearing could not only be felt but also verified on screen with a nice flat response, but when you introduce six rf-7's or any other full range speakers into the equation, you might as well forget it because it is impossable. You are constantly getting a boost in a hz region where you don't want it, or your getting a standing wave canceling out one that you do. So when I look around at my stuff, even though I have RF-7's all the way around, I don't look at it as I'm loseing the power that those big woofers will put out, I'm gaining the clarity of what I really bought them for, plus I'm letting the dual svs pc-ultra's do what they do best and give me clean clear thumping bass. Props to Mr.McGoo for makeing me think. []

[DrWho]

THX (Lucas Film when the research was done)

recommends that all speakers be set as small. This is particularly true

when a receiver is powering speakers as opposed to separate amps.

Bass

frequencies require much more power that higher frequencies. Also, bass

cancellations take place when multiple drivers at less than ideal

locations reproduce bass. It is better to have a killer sub reproduce

lower frequencies.

I'm probably way late to this thread, but oh well....

I entirely agree with all the logic and theory behind running speakers

small....but one fact remains....on every system I've heard it sounds

better running everything as large (provided the speakers in question

could play the full bandwidth too). I try to justify it in some way and

the only "argument" I could come up against myself is the fact that the

studio engineer put those low frequencies on those channels; and he was

also in a normal room when doing so. He wouldn't have put LF content in

those channels if it was going to hurt the sound (especially when it'd

be so easy to drop those sounds on the LFE channel). Nevertheless, it

still doesn't make sense.

Maybe this is a sign that Dolby/DTS need to rewrite their

standards....or to be more realistic, the whole small speaker debate

sounds like a marketing tool to justify the HTIB setups - as it works

to "authenticate" the "realness" of those kinds of systems (they're

following a standard so they must be better).

Anyways, just some food for though

[MrMcGoo]

The benefit in running the mains as large comes from stereo bass. An alternative to the large setting is to use the small setting with a crossover of 50 or 60 Hz. With these settings, you get most of the benefit of stereo bass.

Two way speakers like the RF-7s reduce doppler distortion when crossed at 80 or 100 Hz. I have tried as many combinations as possible with my system. The best bass is from the small setting at 80 Hz, but my RSW-15 does not start to come in till 63 Hz and is not full power till 40 Hz. This is accomplished with the Velodyne SMS-1.

The RF-7s have excess output around 80 Hz which is very close to the minimum impedance. My amp has no trouble delivering the required current into the lowest impedances. Hence the subwoofer is not needed till 63 Hz.

Bill

[Zen Traveler]

[ I'm probably way late to this thread, but oh well....

I entirely agree with all the logic and theory behind running speakers small....but one fact remains....on every system I've heard it sounds better running everything as large (provided the speakers in question could play the full bandwidth too). I try to justify it in some way and the only "argument" I could come up against myself is the fact that the studio engineer put those low frequencies on those channels; and he was also in a normal room when doing so. He wouldn't have put LF content in those channels if it was going to hurt the sound (especially when it'd be so easy to drop those sounds on the LFE channel). Nevertheless, it still doesn't make sense.

Maybe this is a sign that Dolby/DTS need to rewrite their standards....or to be more realistic, the whole small speaker debate sounds like a marketing tool to justify the HTIB setups - as it works to "authenticate" the "realness" of those kinds of systems (they're following a standard so they must be better).

Anyways, just some food for though

I agree whole heartily. I have played around with the Large/Small settings on my speakers and although I understand the argument for Small--I prefer setting All of my speakers to Large. Here is a link that I found interesting and why I am glad I purchased a THX ultra II receiver. []

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-1.html

[DrWho]

I understand the "distortion argument" very well....BUT allow me to step out of the ideal world and into the real world...

No matter how you approach the matter, the fact still remains that the

'music' was recorded in a studio on real speakers. All speakers have

FMD (aka "doppler distortion"). To keep a long story short, there is no

way around the fact that some of the distortion has become part of the

intended sound. I guess what I'm trying to get at is FMD is not

necessarily a bad thing!

Sure, in the ideal world our playback systems would have no distortions

of any kind and reproduce exactly what was recorded. But such a goal

also assumes that the recording itself sounds its best when played back

on such a system....and for that to be the case would be a huge

coincidence, because it all comes back down to the fact that the

recording was mixed in a studio with a nonperfect system. AND even if

there was a perfect system in the studio, it would also assume that the

engineer was mixing exactly to your own tastes.

On another issue...there is more circuitry in the signal path with the

small setting than there is with the large setting....and this is due

to the fact the small setting is introducing a highpass filter. It's

been my experience that such filters can sound much much worse than any

additional coloring due to FMD. But that's not to say such circuitry

couldn't be done well either...but it does raise the cost of the system.

And lastly, setting to small and rerouting the LF to the subwoofer also

screws up the time-alignment of the system. I know I know, nobody

thinks it's a valid issue - but it really does result in a different

timbre. And it also forces more disparity between all the different

listening positions too...even in the frequency domain which is what

most everyone agrees is an issue...

I guess what I'm saying is give me my FMD - it fattens up the sound and

makes it much warmer and less fatiguing to listen to. And there is

strong argument that some of it is supposed to be there anyway...

[HTADDICT]

Good point on the crossover filter, it is another link in the chain, one has to ask himself, is the chance of lesser quality sound higher by using the crossover filter, or higher by setting them to large and adding extra strain on the amplifier and introducing more low freq. waves into the equation.

[ken kaz]

I had the same problem.

I have Chorus II main, Heresy sides, quartet rear.

how the hell can i set the chorus speakers to smal? they arent small.

i bought a svs pb12 ultra2. Big sub.

I played around trying to get this set correctly for a month.

tried everything.

the best setting was setting everything to small. I really think the bass comming out of the chorus was cancelling bass in the room from the sub

there are test tone cds on crutchfield. buy one.

run the low frequency tones (50hz or lower) while it is playing, walk around the room. You will literally find places were the bass is dead and others where it is loud as hell. this problem is severly aggrivated with "large" speakers for some reason.

i ended up also gettting a svs cs-ultra. my bass rocks.

oh, even set at small the woofers on your chorus speakers still get some action. they are not off.

try this.

go get steely dan goucho, DTS. play the first 2 tunes in DTS with your speakers set large. then do it again small.

I bet a beer you dont re-set them large. Maybe if you do you should go get a new sub.

just my .02

kaz

[DrWho]

the best setting was setting everything

to small. I really think the bass comming out of the chorus was

cancelling bass in the room from the sub

Have you tried adjusting the phase on the subwoofer? To keep from going

off topic, PM me and I've got "directions" on the best way to do it by

ear...you're still going to have destructive interference in the

crossover region until you get the phase dialed in correctly.