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meagain

Upgrading in Chicagoland - Need Heritage/vintage Klipsch Info/Opinions

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Meagain, Dr Who is knowledgeable about alot of technical aspects, but keep in mind it is impossible to describe in words what he might be saying. For example, he says the Cornwall is in your face, and the Chorus sounds weaker, but just as forward. Know what that means? I don't, except that I have heard both speakers.

I have Corns, and my friend has Chorus. I told him not to buy those Chorus. But anyway, if Dr. Who would have left off the last "just as forward," he'd be right on the money. Cornwall is more in your face. They are killer for rock, disco, jazz, orchestra. I do not think a majority would put Chorus over Cornwall, but if they did, I'd suck it up as not being in the majority. Chorus is comparable, but not as good as Cornwall. It's what you get if you need a cheaper and/or smaller profile speaker than the Cornwall. Chorus is very good, and I doubt you would be disappointed in them. You'd just be disappointed when you later heard a Cornwall (properly of course) and remembered my advice.

Plus, Chorus are mdf.... bad. Corns really sound so great. Make a date with Pete in your area since he offered. Once you hear those Corns, you'll be sold - as long as Pete has a serious amp and will crank them nicely. You've got to hear them full bore, whether you will regularly use them that way or not. Really, a serious amp is imperative. Not a mid-fi Marantz or something. When I bought mine, they were hooked up to a mid-fi Marantz, and the Corns sounded no better than my old mid-fi Pioneer HPM 100 speakers.

My brother was with me and told me to "have faith" since the seller had only a mid-fi amp. I had faith, bought them, ran them through a Crown Microtech 1200, and they blew my doors away. Corns are that good.

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Here an addition to my documentary about my Corns vs.my friend's Chorus. My friend, who is in Houston, had his Chorus for a while, and he came up with some other friends to my place in Austin at the time (I was going to school there). We were getting ready for a summer road trip to Colorado, and I thought I'd crank a few tunes before we left.

His reaction was "Oh, my God!" True story.

EDIT: I just re-read the posts and your priorities. I need to add ".... and the bass will knock you on your butt." If you rock loud as you say, Rush's YYZ is phenomenal through Corns. You will be absolutely blown away.

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"punchier, cleaner, less boomy." is the most descriptive phrase I've read from our gentle reader thus far. And not one of you has asked about the size of their room, or to ask them to fine tune their listening habits. Ok, its Rock and it's Loud, but I might suggest different speakers for different types of rock, as the speaker's voice can affect the sound greatly.

Taking the above info into account, I'd say you guys were right on with the CW, CH, F II series of Heritage. I'd definitely go for a direct radiator type of bass, that has that nice punch to it that's hard to obtain with the folded horns of KH or LS types. We all talk about the Cornwall SLAM, well it's the only ported direct radiator of the bunch. At lower volumes the Chorus or F II's passive radiator might dig deeper, but when you crank it, there is nothing like being put back in your seat by the Mighty Cornwall.

One caveat might be the bit of 'harshness' of that horn as volume approaches the pain point. The mid horn is a bit edgy, but I find that it's only when I push the system very hard.

If space is a problem the CH or F II would be more 'furniture-like' and equally loud, without the mid problems of the CW.

Hope this helps. Now go out and LISTEN TO SOME STUFF.

And Mrs dtel, you can stop thanking me now. I'm getting a little embarassed. [:$] But I appreciate your sentiments. If you really want to thank me maybe you've got a nice girl cousin around 35 you could introduce me to?

Michael

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Oh, and if you really want to spend that budget, Amy just announced the new Cornwall III this morning. Check it out.

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It's Corns for what you're describing you want. Get Dr. Who to take his Chorus over to Pete's. You'll hear the difference.

I have KHorns. I ruled them out because you did. But, when you get to Pete's, try his KHorns as well. My bass test for my KHorns vs. my Cornwalls has to be Yes's "Roundabout." At the end of the song, when Chris Squier hits that "deep, warbling" bass note, the Khorns do it the most justice I've ever heard.

Be sure to bring that song with you.

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yeah, just get the Cornwalls. The most well-balanced best-valued Klipsch Heritage around (except for those pesky Forte II lovers).

Chris Squire ROCKS!

Michael

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I appreciate your problem in trying to decide.

Let me point out a few things that are probably obvious anyway. People get very used to the sound of their own speakers. They then judge other speakers in reference to their own. I am from the old school and believe that you should compare them to live music.

My next point is that "words" are not very good at describing the percepts. As an example, what is the frequency range of "deep bass"? I suspect that if you actually asked 5 people you would get 5 different answers. Further, if you gave those same 5 people a frequency generator, they would be surprised how far off their numerical estimates actually are compared to the sound that they thought was "80Hz".

Next point, a speaker is actually a part of a system, that is the "speaker-room system". All these speakers will sound better or worse depending how they are located in the room, the size of the room, and the geometry of the room and how it is furnished. You will notice that most of the comments that have been offered concern sonics occurring from about 400Hz and below, usually well below. Well these frequencies have wavelenghts exceeding 2.5 feet, (below 100Hz, then it is in excess of 10ft). With these long wavelengths, the room and the speaker position are absolutely critical. As such, one must take all these comments with a grain of salt. I believe the folks are truthful about what they are hearing; however, many of their comments may reflect the speaker-room system rather than the speaker itself.

Not all is lost, you have been made an offer to hear K-Horns. Go ahead and listen. See for yourself.

Good Luck,

-Tom

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Meagain, Dr Who is knowledgeable about alot

of technical aspects, but keep in mind it is impossible to describe in

words what he might be saying. For example, he says the Cornwall is in

your face, and the Chorus sounds weaker, but just as forward. Know

what that means? I don't, except that I have heard both speakers.

I

have Corns, and my friend has Chorus. I told him not to buy those

Chorus. But anyway, if Dr. Who would have left off the last "just as

forward," he'd be right on the money. Cornwall is more in your face.

They are killer for rock, disco, jazz, orchestra. I do not think a

majority would put Chorus over Cornwall, but if they did, I'd suck it

up as not being in the majority. Chorus is comparable, but not as good

as Cornwall. It's what you get if you need a cheaper and/or smaller

profile speaker than the Cornwall. Chorus is very good, and I doubt

you would be disappointed in them. You'd just be disappointed when you

later heard a Cornwall (properly of course) and remembered my advice.

Plus,

Chorus are mdf.... bad. Corns really sound so great. Make a date with

Pete in your area since he offered. Once you hear those Corns, you'll

be sold - as long as Pete has a serious amp and will crank them

nicely. You've got to hear them full bore, whether you will regularly

use them that way or not. Really, a serious amp is imperative. Not a

mid-fi Marantz or something. When I bought mine, they were hooked up

to a mid-fi Marantz, and the Corns sounded no better than my old mid-fi

Pioneer HPM 100 speakers.

My brother was with me and told me

to "have faith" since the seller had only a mid-fi amp. I had faith,

bought them, ran them through a Crown Microtech 1200, and they blew my

doors away. Corns are that good.

Well reading the words I write is a good place to start... [:P] I said

that at low volumes, the cornwalls presents a larger soundstage than

the chorus (who presents a smaller sound stage), but both speakers are

very forward/in your face. The opposite would be laid back and relaxed.

You can be laid back and large inasmuch as you can be forward and small

(and all other possible combinations).

Any better? lol

Btw, the Chorus speakers generally cost more on the used market and to

say that the old cornwall is handsdown better is saying that klipsch

didn't learn anything over those 10-20 years...Also, mdf is an

acoustically better performer than it's equal width plywood counterpart

(heavier mass = less vibration).

I don't think anyone could categorically say that either is better than

the other....especially if they've never heard them side by side with

the ability to AB (without delays when switching).

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We all talk about the Cornwall SLAM, well

it's the only ported direct radiator of the bunch. At lower volumes the

Chorus or F II's passive radiator might dig deeper, but when you crank

it, there is nothing like being put back in your seat by the Mighty

Cornwall.

Since I like talking about theory so much....PR's actually compress

less at higher volumes than ports do. When a port compresses, the

tuning point actually moves lower - though for a PR it doesn't change

(if anything it moves slightly higher). Wether or not this is a good

thing is up for debate, but a speaker with a PR will behave more

linearly with changes in volume than a ported system. I find that the

chorus has a fuller low end with an increase in volume because of the

F-M curves and it's unbearably linear response....not because it is a

PR design. The cornwall on the other hand is tuned "too high" so at

louder volumes the tuning point moves down and results in a more linear

response. In a way this was a perfect design (totally unintential)

because you get the extra boost at low listening to compensate for the F-M curvers (thanks to a too high

tuning) and then more extension at louder volumes (where you no longer

need the oompf).

So anyways, I can't decide which one I prefer. Each does a different

piece of music better and it's about a 50-50 split for what I listen to

(Nightwish, Beatles, Three Dog Nite, Celldweller, Lacuna Coil, Van

Halen, Loreen McKennit, Moby, Blue Man Group, etc etc...). One of these

days

I'll get around to combining the chorus MF/HF section in the cornwall

LF section. I think that would have the best of both worlds...Though

that will have to wait until I'm out of college and actually have money

to spend [;)]

Btw, the new cornwall III has fixed a lot of problems in the older

models so I can only imagine it sounds better - in which case it might

be a better choice than the chorus. Heck, buying new is always a lot

more fun and then you can get a cabinet finish that suits you best [;)]

The front-firing design of the cornwall also makes it a better

candidate for tucking back into corners (so the cornwall and chorus

take up about the same floorspace because you need a little room for

the PR to breathe).

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really like my Forte II's

would never give them up

recently added a separate amp and now they even sound better

so beside the speakers, the electronics play a major part too

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Let me point out a few things that are

probably obvious anyway. People get very used to the sound of their own

speakers. They then judge other speakers in reference to their own. I

am from the old school and believe that you should compare them to live

music.

Or at the very least reference the music you use to test the

speakers...for example, I could care less if country/jazz/rap sounds

great on khorns [;)]

My next point is that "words" are not very

good at describing the percepts. As an example, what is the frequency

range of "deep bass"? I suspect that if you actually asked 5 people you

would get 5 different answers. Further, if you gave those same 5 people

a frequency generator, they would be surprised how far off their

numerical estimates actually are compared to the sound that they

thought was "80Hz".

When teaching new "sound guys" how to EQ, it usually takes a good 5-6

years (of many hours every week) to even start getting close (as in,

knowing which 1/4th of the spectrum they're in). Heck, even people with

perfect pitch have a hard time memorizing what is what too. But again,

this is why referencing the source material is so important (for

example, claiming super deep lows with an LP source isn't going to have

the same meaning as claiming a system can handle "burps" with ease -

which are tone bursts of a lot of frequencies between 1Hz and 40Hz).

Next point, a speaker is actually a

part of a system, that is the "speaker-room system". All these speakers

will sound better or worse depending how they are located in the room,

the size of the room, and the geometry of the room and how it is

furnished. You will notice that most of the comments that have been

offered concern sonics occurring from about 400Hz and below, usually

well below. Well these frequencies have wavelenghts exceeding 2.5 feet,

(below 100Hz, then it is in excess of 10ft). With these long

wavelengths, the room and the speaker position are absolutely critical.

As such, one must take all these comments with a grain of salt. I

believe the folks are truthful about what they are hearing; however,

many of their comments may reflect the speaker-room system rather than

the speaker itself.

And even with two speakers in the same room with the same source

material you have issues with placement too (they can't be in the same

place at the same time)...heck, even having another set of speakers in

the same room (not being driven, just sitting there) will affect how

the other pair of speakers sound. (the speaker cabinet and ports and

drivers will all vibrate sympathetically and act like passive

radiators, not to mention changing the reflections in the room too).

So what we really need in order to conduct a perfect listening

comparision between speakers is to listen outside (no room acoustics to

worry about) and have a system that will instantly move the first pair

out of the way and then put the other pair in their ideal

location...and do so without making any noise. And even then, you still

have issues with the music on the CD changing over time. This is why

it's so much easier to just look at the numbers and draw your own

conclusions...but the problem there is the manufacturers don't provide

anywhere near the level of measurements we need to get an idea of how a

speaker sounds. So that leaves just trying a pair and finding out for

yourself to see what you like (which is a very expensive way to go

about it).

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This is getting depressing. [:o] No perfect answer. No perfect speaker.

I'm starting to think I'm going to end up playing the upgrade game. ****** them when I can & figure it out later.

I'm putting khorns in the non-shippable category, locked into local sellers for that one. Will be tricky to find the right combo of location, price, and yea - I want them to look good.

I'm seeing the Chorus II to be almost the same weight as Cornwall. I previously assumed less weight & cheaper to ship. But perhaps the Cornwalls size puts them in the 'freight' category? IDK. I'm not happy they are going for the same or more than Cornwall I or II. I was starting to think this might be a first purchase while I continue to scout & learn. Not sure why they are priced so high. Rarer? Or more desired?

I've eliminated the LaScala & Belle. So, I'm looking at: Khorns, Chorus II, Cornwall II.

But I keep stareing at the Forte's 32Hz freq. response. That's gotta be a good thing! Yes? But it seems folks say the Chorus II & Corns are better. Maybe Forte's down the road to augment things?

Clearly I have to listen to these things which will be tricky in itself. Then there are all the mods that can be done. And the darned amp/receiver situation. Yipes. :(

Questions:

1. Is the difference in freq. response of 38 to 39 noticeable? What does this mean for me? KG4's are 38, Corns 38, Chorus 39.

2. My KG4's go down to 6 ohms. Everything else is at 8. When I upgrade, what will this mean to my ears?

3. If I go Cornwall, I want the II's. Yes?

4. If I go Cornwall, is there a better year which lessens the issues stated above? Or - can these issues go away with the rope caulk deal, etc. & do they make a signifcant improvement enough where the issues are eliminated? Would it make it all better to where the issues are moot? And about how much would I have to spend to do this?

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First, keep the Forte on the main list, it is truly an awesome speaker.

Next, DON'T SHIP ANY OF THESE SPEAKERS!!!!

There

have been more failures with shipping than successes. If you can live

with freight damage then go ahead but VERY few sellers will pack them

properly to arrive at your door in one piece. Think packing well enough

to drop the speaker 8 feet on to concrete with no damage.

Now don't worry about impedance (4 ohm, 6 ohm, 8 ohm etc) No

speaker presents a steady load to the amp and what load the

speaker presents at any one time is all over the map depending on what

it is trying to play.

Cornwall 1s are plywood and 2s are MDF. Either will sound awesome (I

use that word a lot to describe Klipsch Heritage speakers[:P]) Take

whichever presents first.

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1. Is the difference in freq. response of 38 to 39

noticeable? What does this mean for me? KG4's are 38,

Corns 38, Chorus 39.

No, not at all. The F3 specs merely give you a rough idea of how low

the speaker goes. Placement in a room will change this number

dramatically so you should not make a decision based on a few Hz.

2. My KG4's go down to 6 ohms. Everything else is at 8. When I upgrade, what will this mean to my ears?

Absolutely nothing [:)] The speaker impedance is there to aid in the

selection of a suitable amplifier. (the lower the impedance, the more

watts the amplifier needs to be capable of).

3. If I go Cornwall, I want the II's. Yes?

I don't think it matters, though I've never directly compared the two. They all sound like cornwalls to me.

4.

If I go Cornwall, is there a better year which lessens the issues

stated above? Or - can these issues go away with the rope caulk

deal, etc. & do they make a signifcant improvement enough where the

issues are eliminated? Would it make it all better to where

the issues are moot? And about how much would I have to

spend to do this?

Colter should be able to answer this question for you...he practically

owns one from every year [;)] The issues we've discussed are relatively

minor in nature compared to the huge improvement in sound you'll notice

by getting the speakers. You might not even notice the flaws until a

few months down the road after getting adjusted to the new sound. In

fact, this is the fun part of the hobby because the mods are relatively

cheap and you get to enjoy tweaking in the sound to your own tastes.

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We recently had the opportunity to audition Cornwalls and Forte II's in the same listening environment. (We were there to purchase the Forte II's) I have to tell you dtel, nor I heard a substantial difference between the two. As a matter of fact, the owner of the Cornwall's/seller of the Forte II's expressed the same opinion. If you are in the market to "play the upgrade game" Forte II's would be a great place to start, you may find that you don't need to go any further. I read your post regarding the music you like and the sounds you want to hear from the speakers, Forte II's will do the job. We paid $425 and $350 a pair, the last pair on e-bay went for $700.00 which included shipping.

Average ebay price between $500 and $600. We purchased our first pair from a local seller, who was recommended by another forum member, always a plus. Our second pair was purchased (thanks Colter, again...) from a local forum member who is not a regular poster, but a regular reader. If you purchase local you can audition anything you want to purchase, which makes the used market relatively safe. Meagain, I honestly believe the Forte II's will provide the quality sound you are looking for, while providing excellent resale value for you to "play the upgrade game." I was truly surprised by the sound these speakers produced. Besides, from what I can gather half the fun is playing the game.

Oh, Colter you are just jealous because you are not a "pesky Forte II owner"...yet. It is my understanding you are in the market for Forte II's. I think I have the concept of "House of Klipsch" but I am not sure I have the total concept. Is it to own one of every kind of speaker Klipsch makes, or multiples of each or just a list of as many as you can purchase, store, stack, etc.

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Good luck on your decisions, personally I think you are making a mistake to say the Belle is out if you are seriously considering corns. The corns really are a big, no huge, speaker. Look at the dimensions on paper all you want but the khorns, as others have said, really are the "smallest" of all. They truly disappear once in place. Any other will need to be moved forward of the wall and most likely toed in. When I swapped out my Chorus for a Belle in the center of my HT I was surprised how much more space I appeared to gain. Belle is shorter, wider and about the same depth. However the lower height seemed to make it seem smaller.

Every one of the speakers you are considering sound wonderful. You can't go wrong with any of them. Shipping is a huge gamble and they bigger the speaker the more that gamble. I suggest you buy the first pair of F/FII/C/CII/Corn/LS/Belle/KH you find locally and go from there. They really are all phenomenal speakers. Some have things that one person will like better then the next but you can't go wrong with any.

Since size seems to be an issue for you if I had a gun to my head and based on what I have seen in this thread and what I have owned, liked and heard I would give you an ordered shopping list of:

Khorn

Forte II

Forte

Belle

Chorus

Chorus II

Cornwall

You are just at the start of a fun ride, enjoy!

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1. Is the difference in freq. response of 38 to 39 noticeable? What does this mean for me? KG4's are 38, Corns 38, Chorus 39.

No, not at all. The F3 specs merely give you a rough idea of how low the speaker goes. Placement in a room will change this number dramatically so you should not make a decision based on a few Hz.

2. My KG4's go down to 6 ohms. Everything else is at 8. When I upgrade, what will this mean to my ears?

Absolutely nothing [:)] The speaker impedance is there to aid in the selection of a suitable amplifier. (the lower the impedance, the more watts the amplifier needs to be capable of).

3. If I go Cornwall, I want the II's. Yes?

I don't think it matters, though I've never directly compared the two. They all sound like cornwalls to me.

4. If I go Cornwall, is there a better year which lessens the issues stated above? Or - can these issues go away with the rope caulk deal, etc. & do they make a signifcant improvement enough where the issues are eliminated? Would it make it all better to where the issues are moot? And about how much would I have to spend to do this?

Colter should be able to answer this question for you...he practically owns one from every year [;)] The issues we've discussed are relatively minor in nature compared to the huge improvement in sound you'll notice by getting the speakers. You might not even notice the flaws until a few months down the road after getting adjusted to the new sound. In fact, this is the fun part of the hobby because the mods are relatively cheap and you get to enjoy tweaking in the sound to your own tastes.

Once again, the good Dr. has it all exactly right. On items 3 and 4, I've also never directly compared the CW and CWII, the CWii has the plastic horn, which might eliminate some perceived ringing, but the caulk mod can tame the metal ones. I don't think it matters a bit of difference. The II would have the K77M, which is said to extend the highs a little higher. There is no particular year of CW that is perferred in my experience, I have a pair from every decade they were made and every crossover. Given my choice, an original CW with B2 crossover might be slightly ahead. Just get ones that look nice, okay?

I've never heard of an unhappy Forte II owner. That's why you don't find them for sale very often. Can't go wrong there.

So don't be depressed, revel in the number of great speakers you have to choose from. Have FUN!

Michael

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"Since size seems to be an issue for you if I had a gun to my head and based on what I have seen in this thread and what I have owned, liked and heard I would give you an ordered shopping list of:

Khorn

Forte II

Forte

Belle

Chorus

Chorus II

Cornwall"

Rich, you're not my friend anymore! Putting CW last on the list. For shame.

M[:P]

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"Since size seems to be an issue for you if I had a gun to my head and based on what I have seen in this thread and what I have owned, liked and heard I would give you an ordered shopping list of:

Khorn

Forte II

Forte

Belle

Chorus

Chorus II

Cornwall"

Rich, you're not my friend anymore! Putting CW last on the list. For shame.

M[:P]

Space not sound brother! I feel the CW take up the most space of the bunch. I agree for this buyer LS is out of the question. If I was going purely by sound the Cornwalls would not make the list....ducking![6][;)]

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Too bad you're getting all this technically insignificant input. All it will do is drive you crazy with increasing indecision. Your choice: Listen to them as was offered by Who and Pete, or buy blindly on some of the advice here. That you stated your inclination of Cornwall II's over Corn I's shows you are getting into this too deeply, with too much minutia.

At this point, nobody's additonal comments can help you. You've gotten a flavor and maybe narrowed down the range some. You need to be on your own for the rest. But I still maintain, KHorns aside, if you are looking for speakers that are loud as hell, have bass with a punch and are nice 'n clear, you're going to go with the Corns if you hear them auditioned through an amp worth enough to drive them toward their limits.

Tip: You will not get that result with Harmon Kardon receivers. I am not knowledgeble in all the amp brands out there, but there was a tremendous difference between my old Marantz amp/pre-amp (which was supposed to be a very good amp) and my Crown Microtech.

When I bought my Khorns recently, the guy had all kinds of stereo stuff sitting around. He wanted to audition them to me through a Marantz receiver. We did. I knew they sounded bad. He didn't. He had some other amp sitting around, which I could just tell was good (I think a Definitive). I made him hook it up. He admitted he never heard the KHorns sound that good before. The guy is a buy cheap-and-resell hi-fi guy. So, I taught him what the speakers could do.

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