Tube amp neophyte

[Danartdis]

I hope I dont sound like a complete dolt here but exactly what is the advantage of a low power tube amp vs. solid state stuff. I mean I have read some of us in these forums gush about the sound quality, but can anyone describe specifically what the difference sounds like? Boy that sounds dumb now that I read it. Anyway, can anyone educate me?

Thanx

Dan

[discorules]

Ok. What I hear as a tube advantage is in the midrange. Tubes to my ears and many of those who favor tubes have a liquid, more natural ease in midrange presentation. This is most noticeable when levels get high. This is in part due to the clipping characteristics of tubes. When tubes begin to clip or max out in power, they generally distort with even order harmonics which is more tolerable to the ear. Bipolar transistors distort with high orders of odd harmonics, 3rd, 5th, etc. This is much less pleasing to the ear. Some also say the highs are less glaring with tubes. I suspect that there is some high frequency roll off with some amplifiers however.

Personally, I believe solid state still has an overall advantage tubes. Both have strengths and weaknesses but for me the weaknesses of solid state are minor compared to those of tube amps.

[mobile homeless]

No need to feel bashful about ye olde tube knowledge. Although there are a lot more tube amps around then five years ago, most towns still dont have stores or anywhere you can hear the beasts, that is, unless you know some other mutant who has tube amps, pretty much a long shot given the general population. One must generally travel to a city or some town with the obligatory "hi-end" salon (a horror in itself).

So what makes a low power tube amp better? Well, since you asked about the sound, I will stick to that aspect. To me, when it comes right down to it, tubes sound far more natural and musical. They have a certain relaxed presentation that makes your mouth water at times. You know how when you have a typical solid state amplifier, and you turn it up to advanced listening levels, there is a tendency to move toward the volume and turn the beast down after a few minutes? Well, with a great tube amp, there is none of this. That glare at high volumes is missing. The volume gets louder, yet the glare and harshness do not.

One other main difference is the harmonic richness of the sound. Listening to something like Sonny Rollins or, better yet, Ben Webster blow his tenor sax, there is a round, breathy, three dimensional quality to the tone...indeed, tone is the important word and the harmonic structure of the tone seems to remain intact; in other words, there is no bleaching to the sound like you get with so-so solid state. Hell, even GOOD to GREAT solid state does not equal the harmonic richness of an avereage tube amp.

Now people that grow up on Cerwin Vega sound with pumping bass and piercing highs might find the average tube amp unimpressive as they move toward the volume and want to hear the woofers dance like a two ton mallet going though a six story tenant house. However, if you really listen to average to good solid state, high power amps, most end up missing on the basic harmonic structure; in essence, the tone is just not there, at least not compared to live music. I have had many great solid state amps pass through my home. Indeed, I finally sold my last solid state pair of monoblocks last year, and these were amps I thought I would never sell (a pair of B&K M200 Sonata Monoblocks). Indeed, they were very smooth and excellent amps, employing MOSFET transistors which I believe are the more musical (compared to bipolar). Yet in the end, a vintage Williamson EL-84 push pull amp with a triode front end managed to sound more musical and alive than this monoblocked $2000 powerhouse. I sold them within a month.

Listening to jazz is one thing, especially combo jazz from the 50s and 60s.... on tubes it is sublime. But what about rock? Well, if you are a Jimi Hendrix fan...or Cream...or Led Zeppelin...well, the sound of a Fender stratocaster (or 50s or 60s Les Paul)exploding from a good tube amp is just amazing! It is so much more of a whole...of a "you are there" experience.

On a SET amp, which is a single ended triode where the music waveform is not split.... this amp with no feedback can be pure musical nirvana and probably gets your closer to the music than any other amplification device I have ever heard. Of course, the speakers and source become of pararmont importance, but when all is right, I know of no more intimate sound than a female voice on a great SET amp. It must be heard to be believed. Unfortunately, it is very easy to make these amps sound extremely poor. Given the wrong speakers are a poor front end, or even the wrong wire, the SET amp can be quite the pedestrian device. But I have seen nothing bring the musicians into the room like a good SET amp can. They have literally moved me to tears more than a few times, and have the capability of doing this EVEN when you DONT LIKE the music!

Are SET amps at 2-10watts of power ok for rock? Well, just this evening, my wife wanted to throw on some Beatles LPs. I havea a pair of Welborne Labs 2A3 Monoblocks .... And I dont think I have played the Beatles in months. Lord, we put on side two of Abbey Road and the sound had a grit and gristle, a presence that is just hard to explain, much like horns make you feel. And this was with some SERIOUS volume! Yet where a horn can sound harsh with a lower treble glare, the well-designed SET amp takes glare and makes it a foreign word. The music is all at once liquid and alive. John Lennon's and George Harrison's guitars came out like live wires...with crackling immediacy, the grit and gristle retained.

You hear people talk of rolled off highs? A good low powered SET amp had completely unfettered highs that are anything BUT rolled off, extending in a natural way. There is no need to "turn up the treble" as one would do on cheap transistor equipment. For this brings me to one of the hallmarks of tube amps. TRANSPARENCY. A great tube amp, and a SET amp in particular, has an amazingly transparent, open sound, that is GRAIN free! The treble on 95% or more of solid state amps gets corrupted. The treble on a fine tube amp is some of the most natural sound you will hear, outside of a live event. Once you actually HEAR a stereo system without that grain of a typical SS amp, you will be hard pressed to EVER turn back. And the bass on a tube amp with an excellent power supply (the power supply and transformers are SO IMPORTANT), is very taunt and deep, while perhaps giving up that last bit of visceral impact of say an amp like the Bryston or Krell.

In addition, the soundstaging capabilities of a great tube amp are rivaled by no solid state power house I have heard to date, and this includes the standard big name.

I turned a buddy of mine onto tubes. He had a Bryston 4B-ST fed by an Audio Research LS-7. After listening to my EICO HF-81 for about two hours he shook his head. Two months later, he had moved the Bryston (which is a damn fine SS amp, by the way), to the home theater system along with the Audio Research LS-7. In its place, was $275 worth of EICO integrated and a parsal of NOS Mullard and BugleBoy tubes. Ultimately, the little EICO really did make more music. And that reminds me, all tube amps are not created equal. In my opinion, Audio Research is some of the most overrated gear around with many of their preamp and amps sounding very bleached out and on the white side of the sonic spectrum. The Audio Research SP-8 was a musical preamp compared to others in the line, but something like the LS-7 is quite the sterile piece. Ditto with many of their amps. I just dont find them very appealing.

This post is long enough already. If you are skeptical about tubes and dont want to jump headlong, a good tube preamp is a great compromise and can actually do wonders with a solid state amp. That was the way I was living when I was deep into solid state amplification. But ultimately, like guitar amps, a good tube amps just cant be beat. The tube is such a simple amplification device and far more linear than a transistor.

And you owe it to yourself to drop by a buddy's house who has a good system run by tubes. Sit back and give it a listen. Chances are, once you reach a certain point in the game, you will tire of the hi-fi spectacular and start really LISTENING to the music and not the sound a stereo is making.

The difference is not subtle.

kh

------------------

s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

ProAc Mini Towers

Alternate System:

EICO HF-81

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7af>s>

[jdm56]

Might I humbly suggest that the wondrous "harmonics" that are so often attributed to valve amps are actually "harmonic"...distortion, being produced at levels that dwarf the miniscule distortion component of a well-designed SS amp operating within it's linear range? It may sound subjectively pleasing, but it ain't hi-fi, by definition.

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JDMcCall

[mobile homeless]

]You might suggest that James, but it would show your lack of exposure to the actual music via these devices.

James, if you are still in the stages of distortion specs and their merits, take a trip the average Best Buy or Circuit City. Glance at the VANISHINGLY low distortion specs, specs that are EASILY obtainable with a judicious use of negative feedback. Pick up your average mid-fi receiver and it will have TOP NOTCH specs.

Now, plug this device in and listen to it. Why does it sound like glass? Your statement "it aint Hi-fi" is more than a bit off the mark, and troubling to say the least. I almost feel like I am going back in time as you dont hear this type of argument anymore. To say I was shocked to read it was an understatement.

The notion of vanishingly low levels of total harmonic distorion equaling "good" or "hi-fi" sound is so far out of the picture now that most people dont even pay it lip service anymore. It is what led to the piles of poorly designed amplifiers, amplifiers that measured well and sounded like horror.

What is your definition of HIFI? Good specs? Low total harmonic distortion? I wonder how much listening you do in rating your equipment...

And all this time I thought we had finally moved past the THD argument... Apparenty, Stereo Review dinosaurs are still lumbering about, waving the Julian Hirsch TEST BENCH flag. A sad day for audio...

khf>s>

[Malcolm]

And some people prefer vinyl over CDs...

A lot of the hype about tube amps being superior to transistor amps goes back to the days of the earliest transistor amps. People swapped out tube amps for transistor amps and didn't like the sound, then blamed it on the transistor amp, when the problem was probably just a mismatch in damping factor. Speakers that sound good with an amp with a low damping factor do not necessarily sound good with an amp with a high damping factor, and vice versa. I had a JVC transistor power amp from the 70s. It was a real piece of audiophile gear, not the consumer stuff that JVC builds today. It had a switch to alter the damping factor of the amp to match the speakers. You could really hear the difference in sound the different settings made with an given set of speakers.

There is a lot of talk about the even harmonic distortion of tube amps sounding better than the odd harmonic distortion of transistor amps. This ignores a few things. As already pointed out, even harmonic distortion is still distortion. The harmonic distortion of low power tube amps when driven hard can be an order of magnitude greater than a good transistor amp. The human ear is relatively insensitive to harmonic distortion in the first place. The speaker is a much worse source of harmonic distortion than a good transistor amp, or for that matter, a tube amp driven at reasonable levels. Intermodulation distortion is more disturbing than harmonic distortion.

But, it really all comes down to what you like to listen to. Some people don't like speakers with reasonably flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. They want a bump in the bass or midrange, or a rolloff of the treble, etc. Likewise, some people just like the sound of tube amps better than transistor amps, or vice versa. And some people just like the idea of tube amps.

Biggest disadvantage to me of tube amps is having to replace tubes periodically. There's the time involved, plus the fact that you don't pay for a tube amp once. You pay for it over and over again buying tubes. Finding tubes can also be a problem sometimes. They aren't exactly a commodity item anymore. You can't go down to the local supermarket for a replacement like in the 50s. You have to use NOS tubes, which are becoming increasingly rare, or tubes from places like the former Soviet Union. And as what's left of the Soviet countries slowly modernize their military and economies, and their tube factories shut down, tubes will probably become considerably harder to find and/or much more expensive.

Another disadvantage, not a big one if you like Kipschorns, etc., is the need to use high efficiency speakers to get reasonable sound level. There are not nearly as many choices today as there were in the 50s. You are pretty much limited to vintage gear or a small fraction of currently manufactured speakers.

[mobile homeless]

Well, actually, there are more tubes being made right now than in years, with many new companies specializing in audio tubes. You have KR, AVVT, Sovtek, Svetlana, Western Electric, Vaic Valve, JJ/Tesla, EI, China etc all pumping out tubes for the audio market. Western Electric started remanufacturing their famous 300B again and cant make enough. Sovtek came out with a 2A3 tube that is flying off the shelves and a great deal to boot. In fact, there are many places you can get tubes online, having them in your hand in under two days. Vintage NOS tubes are going strong via eBay and many online resources. In fact, tube guitar amps are experiencing the biggest comeback in a decade. I have enough tubes for my amps right now to last for 20 years or more depending.

Notice how both these posts talk of things have NOTHING to do with actually listening to the equipment, using the most sophisticated testing devices yet known: The Human ear & brain. For with all of man's testing methods, we are still quite far away in establishing the ultimate correlations between the numbers and how they relate to good sound and practical circuit/topology application.

Chosing an amp based on specs will land you in the hole more often than not, especially if you are thinking that said numbers always equal a musical or even good sounding component. Even the mainstream press and audio public in general is starting to realize that the tried and true numbers we used arent quite what they were cracked up to be, which is part of the reason that a major magazine like Stereo Review would simply bite the dust (that and the HT boom).

I have to chock that under that "been there done that" category as well, since I used to buy gear from the same parameters, including the much bantered about "watts per channel" figure, which once again, is one of the most abused specs, many believing that if you add more watts, good sound magically appears. Once again, in my 30 plus years in this hobby, I have had to come to grips that, all things being equal, the more watts you bring, the more chance for the sound to be corrupted. Watts usually bring grain, unless you have an extremely good power supply, circuit, and are heavily biased in Class A, all of which bring much more expense. Granted, I have heard good solid state amplifiers, amplifiers that I wouldnt mind having at home; indeed, the Bryston 4B-ST is an extremely well-built, good sounding, amp. It's an amp that is probably better than 98% of the solid state amps owned by members of this forum. Still, to me it represents a compromise in musicality.

As for the use of tube amps, I have found them to be very simple devices that need little shop time as they are usualy very straight forward. Embarking on the journey of rolling tubes is actually a very rewarding one. But ultimately, like vinyl, tubes do require a bit more interaction but the sound is worth it. I wonder how many of the anti-tube, specs touting contingent actually has heard a high quality tube amp in a good system.

I have to admit some surprise as to the systems of the participants within this board. Almost 90% of the systems I have seen are home theater based with video and surround sound/AV units employed. I have always worked hard to keep the two separate as faithful music production seems to not coexist with the Home Theater side of the equation. Indeed, to me, the sight of the TV even in the same room feels a bit bothersome. I am sure most on here do not agree as video seems to be a mainstay. I have always found it much better to have nothing between the speakers; a monster home entertainment center with 36 inch screen does very little for the quality of the sound.

khf>s>

[Colin]

Wow! Wonderful stuff here. I am sure that we will be able to solve the decades long tube vs. transistor debate right here! NOT!

A few additional points:

1. I think that the average person walking into the average room, the difference betweens tubes and SS is quite subtle.

2. On big old horns, which require mere microwatts, the match is made in heaven, for tubes have better distortation charactoristics at very low power, among other things. Ever seen a THD curve on a really good SS amp? It ain't pretty. Just where your horns are drawing power, maybe a 10th of a watt, the distortion is awfull.

3. But coupled to the most powerful computer on the planet, at 20 billion instructions per second, our ears are learning devices. My opinion is that over the long run, improperly matched SS amps and speakers will wear out the music lovers ears.

4. Finally, and perhaps most importantly for a cheapskate like me, old and used tube amps, with some parts replacements, or new low cost ones, like my BC Paramours, give far better sound than the light weight black boxes fastooned with buttons that sell for under a $1k at most stereo shops. The construction of most of this stuff is piss poor. With most tube equipment, you are getting an emphasis on build quality (often point to point wiring by hand) rather than a plethora of minor features.

5. Some tube amps are easy on the tubes, some are hard. Some tube amps run a lot of lot of voltage through the tubes and burn them up quickly; it depends on the design of the amp.

6. Despite Stereophile's wonderful attepts to quantify our listening experience, specs don't say how a group of components will interact:

"There has been a failure in the attempt to use specifications to characterize the subtleties of sonic performance. Amplifiers with similar measurements are not equal, and products with higher power, wider bandwidth, and lower distortion do not necessarily sound better.

Historically, that amplifier offering the most power, or the lowest IM distortion, or the lowest THD, or the highest slew rate, or the lowest noise, has not become a classic or even been more than a modest success.

For a long time there has been faith in the technical community that eventually some objective analysis would reconcile critical listener's subjective experience with laboratory measurement. Perhaps this will occur, but in the meantime, audiophiles largely reject bench specifications as an indicator of audio quality. This is appropriate.

Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment."

From the God of massively powerful SS amps, Nelson Pass, decades ago]

Go to http://www.passlabs.com/articles/seclassa.htm to see this article on Class A amps and other fine articles.

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HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 10-20-2001 at 10:12 AM

[mobile homeless]

Colin, you added some excellent points here, especially the appropos quotes from Nelson Pass, who has designed MANY a fine solid state amps in his day, and who also is a big proponent of MOSFET single ended transistor amps. In adition, one might remember the famous ZEN AMP circuit (no, not the DECWARE ZEN SV83 SE), as it was one of the first that employed single ended topology with a solid state device.

Colin and I are in general agreement, although I dont necessarily believe in point one. I have had people who dont even have a clue about audio walk in to my listening room and have their jaws drop. Most sit back and just listen ...and then when they spy the 2A3 Moondogs or even the homely EICO, they are dumbfounded. Many have never even SEEN a tube amp much less heard one. I have had students come in and point to a tube asking, "what is that?"

Heh.... Sadly, the same thing happens when you pull out the vinyl.

kh

f>s>

[Colin]

Wait, there's more:

1. It is a shame that dealers do not market other types of combinations, like OTL amps, for example. You would think that they would put KHorns in the corners with tube amps, electrostatics with OTLs and planars with monster Krells, but no.

2. Tube amplifiers make the type of harmonic distortion that we subconsciously identify with musical instruments, so that reproduced music sounds well, umm right. For a primer on tubes, see the lesson John E. Johnson gives at:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_1_1/v1n1amps.html#HarmonicDistortion

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HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 10-20-2001 at 12:15 PM

[Malcolm]

Danartdis,

See what you've started?

Simple fact is that you can build a good system powered by tubes or powered by transistors. Only your ears will tell you what is right for you.

If this thread isn't enough, for more than you will ever want to know about tubes, check out www.audioasylum.com.

[TheEAR]

Tube VS SS

The sound of tube amps and preamps brings this life to music.There is someting alive about tube gear most(PassAleph does)SS does not have.

This is why I paired a Audio Research tube preamp with a Krell SS monster power amp.This way I get the power and the life.Very good results

Mobile homeless is right when he says the more complex the amp the less musical the outcome.Most high tech amps dont sound too good,they may have power but sound artificial.The Krell,Celeste and Bryston are my fave SS amps.The Krell is about the only high-tech amp that sounds great.Bryston and Celeste amps are true SS bargains,the sound quality bests most SS amps.Most

The PassAleph(PassLabs)amps are probably the best sounding SS amps ever made(if you dont think so give me the make and model).From the small 30W/ch. stereo PassAleph heating cube to the huge X1000 monoblocks the musicality is magical.Nelson Pass is a master amplifier designer,his designs are simple and sound better then any SS amp I heard.All Class A,what else?

OTL amps are a rare breed,only a few companies make them.Graaf if one of them,I heard this amp at a show and the sound could only be described as "air"."musicality","purity",simply gorgeous.

Good to see some more real deal audiophiles here.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[jdm56]

My definition of hi-fi? Well, let me drag the old LIVING WEBSTER out...Yeah, here we go: high fidelity, the reproduction of sound with minimal distortion of the original signals. Sounds about right to me. So, that audible "harmonic richness" that you enjoy with your tube amps is NOT, by the above definition, "hi-fi". But if you enjoy it, great. Just please don't try to justify it as being somehow better, when it is not. It is just euphonic coloration. I prefer my system to reproduce music, not produce "colorized" versions of it.

Oh btw, welcome to the forum. I do appreciate your point of view, and obvious love of music and audio. We're just on different sides of the fence on this

one.

------------------

JDMcCall

[djk]

"I hope I dont sound like a complete dolt here but exactly what is the advantage of a low power tube amp vs. solid state stuff. "

Are you sure there is an advantage for tubes?

In the begining there was the phonograph.

And it was good.

And then came the tube.

And it was, well it was louder.

But not necessarily better.

Feedback. Push-pull. FETs. Then transistors.

The first transistor amps were copies of tube amps, just made with transistors. They inherited all the warts from the tube designs and picked up a few of their own. Notice that I haven't said anything bad about the transistor yet.

Lack of odd harmonic disortion in tubes.

False.

All feedback amps have higher odd harmonics. The feedback only cancels even harmonics. This is true whether it is a tube, transistor, or MOSFET.

A single ended amplifier with no feedback does produce predominantly second harmonic distortion driven just into clipping. Beyond 6dB into clipping the spectrum analysis shows the odd harmonics start to rise and look the same as a feedback amplifier.

Electrolytic capacitors don't sound good. The dielectric absorbs part of the signal passing through. When used as a coupling device the electrolytic gives up this charge when the signal goes through the zero crossing point. That means when it is supposed to be dead silent (the zero crossing point) all the hash comes out. Because of the high voltage in tube circuits they don't have electrolytic caps in the signal path. This is one of the main reasons cheap tube gear from the 50's and 60's sounded better than early solid state gear, they didn't have electrolytic coupling caps. When you hear tube freaks looking for 'Black Beauties', 'Orange Drops', and "Vitamin Qs" they are talking about coupling caps. They also didn't need electrolytic caps in the power supply either.

Electrolytic caps in the power supply have poor transient response. In transistor amps this translates into muddy bass. A choke input filter in a tube amp requires only a small high voltage filter cap. A 170W triode amp I used to own only had a single 9µF filter cap, a 'paper-in-oil' type (another tube freak gaga item). A cheap 2A3 based amp found in a console type hi-fi used a choke input filter and was single ended with no feedback. The first transistor amps were electrolytic coupling cap renditions of high feedback push-pull tube amps. They had the extra warts of electrolytic capped power supplies and electrolytic output coupling caps in additon to their electrolytic input coupling caps.

Remarks by 'homeless' tube freaks about the superiority of their glorified 2A3 juke box amps should be taken in this context. The solid state examples they have given as their 'reference' (B&K and Bryston) use un-bypassed electrolytic caps in their signal path and power supply, not to mention high negative feedback. Adding about $4 worth of film bypass caps in the right spots and $1 worth of emitter de-generation resistors to the diff inputs to reduce open loop gain will totally change the sound of these kind of amps. At this point in time the only affordable way to hear a solid state amp without electrolytic caps and feedback is to DIY. The http://www.passlabs.com/ site has good DIY content.

[mobile homeless]

Thanks for the Welcome note, James. Still waiting on your system. Since I am relatively new to this forum, I am not familiar with your equipment nor audio background.

I will say that your apparent use of a Websters Dictionary in defining "good sound" or "high fidelity" is emminently amusing. May I suggest this is a rather limited source to quote concerning the quality of audio.

I will just repeat two quotes that entirely ring true in years of purchasing and listening to high quality amplification, which include top notch solid state and tubes:

f>s>

"There has been a failure in the attempt to use specifications to characterize the subtleties of sonic performance. Amplifiers with similar measurements are not equal, and products with higher power, wider bandwidth, and lower distortion do not necessarily sound better."

"For a long time there has been faith in the technical community that eventually some objective analysis would reconcile critical listener's subjective experience with laboratory measurement. Perhaps this will occur, but in the meantime, audiophiles largely reject bench specifications as an indicator of audio quality. This is appropriate....Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment."

f>s>

Alas, it is a subjective experience; indeed, the word experience seems to be key here as well for some have more of this valued commodity than others.

I would advise careful consideration when using Websters, THD, and other specs as your main tool in achieving "high fidelity" audio. If you are not careful, you might come home with a metal box that will leave your feet firmly planted to floor and your eyes glazed over, all the while arriving enjoyment that you have just obtained the absolute "Reference" in high fidelity audio.

Happy listening, my dear friend.

kh

f>s>

------------------

s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

ProAc Mini Towers

Alternate System:

EICO HF-81

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7af>s>

[Colin]

There are other more detailed explanations for why such antiquated equipment can still compete against the modern advances of SS. I posted two arguments separately.

But not all speakers sound good with flea powered amps. The little Infinity bookshelf speakers my friend has sound better with his Sony SS receiver than with my 2A3 tubes. My big old horns sound better with the flea powered amps (thank goodness!).

------------------

HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

[maxg]

The great tube vs SS debate. Each declares the other to be inferior. Each has pros and cons.

For me it is a question of the music I listen to. If its rock you are playing than nothing can beat a propoerly set up Solid state unit (IMHO), if, on the other hand, its Jazz then tubes are the platform with the magic you want.

Most other types of music lie somewhere in the middleground (possibly excepting new music types which I cannot comment on as I do not own any).

My first good amp was a Solid state unit, Accuphase E211. Not heard anything that will reproduce Dire Straits better (for example). The bass line is faster and SS amps generally love electric guitars. Jazz was played well, but somehow lacked the emotion behind the play.

Enter 1 pair of tube monoblocks (locally produced). Jazz like I have never heard it before, better than I dreamed was possible.

In conclusion - I now own both and would recommend to anyone with eclectic listening tastes to investigate doing likewise. The investment may have been large enough to hurt but the pain was worth it. I could no more part with either my tubes or my Solid state amp than with my ears.

My adivce would be as follows:

If you are in the market for new amps take a selection of your favorite music down to your local suppliers and listen (unless you can arrange for systems to be delivered). Write down your observations for later review. Enjoy the process. Most importantly try to relax whilst listening - let the music flow through you and try not to let your pre-judgements interfere with your assessment of the music.

when you have finished the analysis re-read your notes and make your selections based on those. This is what I did (to an extent) and it is what lead me to conclude that I needed both solutions.

Good luck

[Randy Bey]

That'll teach you, Kelly. Put these dull, uninspired ideas of yours out for public scrutiny, and this is what you get. Next time phone it in.

As I read this thread I was more and more inclined to add to it, but by the end my resolve has wavered. No one here wants to hear how much I love my tube amps.

Anyhow, everyone I know that is disrespectful of tube gear has not heard it under proper circumstances. For the dissonant readers, replace 'tube' with 'horn' and the statement remains true. If you admonish people to listen to horns before passing judgement, perhaps you might want to do the same with tubes.

f>

[TBrennan]

Mobile---You're thinking like a direct-radiator guy. A TV between horns isn't going to effect the sound because of the horn's directivity. The sound pattern form a horn is projected in a pattern and very little, if any, direct energy will hit the TV. As for reflected energy, well that's willy-nilly anyway, what with furniture, walls, the speakers themselves; the TV won't be detrimental.

[Danartdis]

WOW!!!

I figured there would be differing opinions but I never thought I would be the catalyst for such spiriteddiscussions. I thank each and every one of you for taking the time to post such comprehensive replies. I have learned a lot. I have also learned that I have a lot to learn. Thanks to everyone again.

Dan