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Tube amp neophyte


Danartdis

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I would be tempted to say that, unless you've got lots of cash, it's better to stick with SS amps.

Good tube amps sound incredible, but good tube amps are very expensive. At the lower price range, a good little SS amp sounds far better...at least for me.

Now there may be exeptions, but you'll have to find them.

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Shock late has a good point, because the best low cost deal I know in tube amps is the ASL Wave 8s for $99 each, and then you need a pre-amp for what? $500?, so right way you are past the point where you can start with SS receiver -

one of the best deals in tube amps are the modified or rebuilt Dynaco ST 70 classics with EL84 tubes, but these are about $500 to $750 and you still need the pre-amp, so now you are talking about an area where SS receivers start to sound good -

most of the prices of the well made tube amps are outrageous -

especially when compared to what low cost class D and H SS amps can accomplish in the low end of the frequency spectrum -

the advancements with MOSFETs intrigue me, especially since I know of one tube lover that has crossed back over the line -

"So why is Toob Man reviewing the Aleph 30 - a solid-state design? In a nutshell, it is the most musical solid-state I have yet to audition over the past forty years. It effectively bridges the gap between solid-state and tube sound, blending tube and transistor virtues into a musically satisfying whole."

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/volksamp.htm (The Volksamp Aleph 30 SE Power Amplifier by Dick Olsher, July 2001).

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HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 10-22-2001 at 09:11 PM

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Again - whoever out there in audio land is enchanted with the warm glow - er uh, I mean sound - of their tubes, well bully for you! Really. 'Cause that is what it is ultimately all about; Putting together systems that bring us musical enjoyment. BUT JUST QUIT SAYIN' IT'S BETTER, IN ANY OBJECTIVE WAY! 'Scuse me for shouting. Ahem...OK, that's better...As I was saying; Whatever floats yer own particular boat. It just annoys me; the at least vaguely arrogant condescension that always seems to go hand in hand with tube-ophiles proclamations of tube virtues. You know what I mean; Unless you bow to the tube god, you are branded by the true believers of tubedom as being ignorant at least, or of being a tin-eared, spec-spewing audio Philistine at worst.

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JDMcCall

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Colin, that´s EL34s for the ST-70 man...the volks amp is the original Pass aleph amp licensed to some guys for mass production, all that Pass stuff does sound marvelous BUT...my MkIVs sound as good to me and cost me less than half as much (after rebuild)...however some times when I am really crankin´ it up I do miss some SS umph! My McIntosh Integrated amp never ran out of steam!...God bless our hobby! Buy both! SS for those disco moments and some SET tube rig (300B anyone?) for that miles davis moment...et voila, stereo heaven...just remember those speakers stay the same! make mine Klipsch! regards, tony

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*1993 K-Horns w/ ALK x-overs*Marantz 7T preamp*Dynaco MkIV monoblocks (modded to triode)*Sony CDP-CX350 and CX-230 CD changers*MSB link DACIII (96k upsampling)*MSB silver digital director (for switching and jitter reduction)*Technics M-85 professional Cassette Deck*SAE MK VIII tuner*Luxman PD-272 turntable, Grado Red cartridge*Cardas Crosslink speaker cable*Monster M550i for all interconnects*Monster HTS3500 Reference Powercenter Conditioner

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well, randy I'll tell ya'...the other night I was feelin' fiesty and put on rage against the machine...holy cow! I found myself crankin' to literally gut thumping levels!...those K-horns really can PLAY LOUD...however the highs and upper mids do get beamy and kind of rough at those levels ;-) I wonder if need to go back to my Magnapans? NOT! It is true that with my SS amp the K-horns seem better controlled at those ridiculously high levels...the tube rig sounds best at "mildly loud" ...regards from head banger central here in sunny el salvador, Tony

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James: Objectively, Tubes are considerably better than solid state.

A solid state device has inherently MUCH, MUCH higher distortion than a tube. In fact, the bigger triodes, when operating at high cathode current, are possibly THE MOST LINEAR AMPLIFICATION DEVICES EVER CREATED.

I'll give you a minute for that to sink in Smile.gif

Because SS does not do very well on its own, it is almost always used in conjunction with feedback. (Of course there are exceptions, I'll get to those in a sec.) When you use feedback with a tube amplifier, it is possible to obtain pretty great THD numbers too, but never as high as SS, because the gain is much lower.

Now, while I'm not going to go into a long discussion of feedback, a basic fact is that while feedback can be used to lower THD & improve output impedance, ultimately other problems can manifest (especially IMD). IMD & TIM are almost *never* measured, and I've never seen a production SS amp w/ IMD & TIM specs. NEVER. Instead we always see THD (quite possibly the most meaningless specification ever recorded) specs AT FULL POWER. *Always* at full power... why do you think that is?

It is measured at full power because Push-Pull SS amps have much higher THD at low power levels. A SE tube amp, on the other hand, has decreasing distortion levels at low power. This is why THD at X power level is such a worthless specification. Even looking at a graph of THD vs Power isn't much help, as it often doesn't extend all the way down.

Given this, we must be VERY CAREFUL what we are comparing. Tubes in and of themselves are much more linear, SS *AMPS* have better THD because they use lots of feedback. Also we can compare Push-Pull vs SE. SE Solid State amps (like Pass Lab's designs) have many things in common w/ SE tubes, like decreasing distortion with decreasing power.

And again, you must be very careful as to what SORTS of distortion you are talking about, and what subjective effects they have on hearing. Harmonic distortion is generated in absolutely *MASSIVE* ammounts by your ear. In fact, w/ a 90db input signal, your ears generate 80db of 2nd order harmonic distortion, 60db of 3rd order harmonic distortion, and 50db of 4th order harmonic distortion. Your brain filters it out. Your brain is TRAINED to filter out a sloping 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... harmonic distortion profile.

Taking the very generalized case of SE Tubes vs PP SS operating at EQUAL POWER, the SS Amp will have lower THD and lower output impedance, but the tube amp will have much lower intermodulation distortion products, because of the lack of feedback. The tube amp will also be generating a distortion profile similar to that created by the ear.

Saying that tubes are not Hi-Fi because of the THD specs is panamount to saying that THD is the *only* spec important to Hi-Fi! Heck, Harmonic Distortion isn't even the only form of distortion! If there was any one distortion product that did the LEAST harm to the sound (subjectively), harmonic distortion would be it! (Especially when in this sort of sloping profile.)

Charlie G

EDIT: In fact, studies have shown a THD of as high as 10%, in the proper profile, and at certain SPL levels to be *completely inaudible*. The brain simply doesn't hear it.

Again, what I'm saying here is that THD is only part of the story, we must consider the profile of the harmonics, and we must consider THD vs Power.

If 'Hi-Fi' is nothing but the quest for the lowest THD numbers possible, then I want nothing to do with it. I'd rather search for the best sound possible.

Just one last time, in case anybody missed it: The THD spec at full power for an amplifiers tells you absolutely NOTHING about the subjective sound quality of the amplifier.

This message has been edited by Spider124 on 10-23-2001 at 07:00 PM

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Spider---IM distortion is almost never measured on SS amps and you've NEVER (your emphasis) seen SS IMD specs?!? Where you been man, I've seen those specs for years. Check the Crown website and see IMD measurements at both low and high output levels. That statement of yours has blown your credibility with me, if you can't get something as simple as reading an amp brochure right.......

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Well, it's good to hear that someone has recognized the importance of these other factors.

It's unfortunate though, that since I'm guilty of not having looked at Crown's brochures, that I no longer have any credibility.

In which case I'd urge anyone to investigate on their own the effects of the ear's distortion on hearing & the results of SE operation of triodes and transistors (in terms of distortion). As these are the important things I was trying to convey, not the fact that IMD & TIM specs are not commonplace.

(The fact that I have not seen them doesn't mean they don't exist, it means they aren't commonplacein Hi-Fi, and I maintain that.)

Charlie

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"What's that noise?" "It's the carpet, it kinda mutes the speakers." "No, it sounded more like the chandalier falling."

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of course, I knew that ST70s had EL34s,its not like I had the things 10 years with the covers off and looked at them every day when I turned them or anything like that -

of course, fool I am and fool I shall be, I also forgot one of the best arguements for tubed amps: headphones, especially electrostatic ones -

Ya wanna hear the difference tube amps make, try hooking a tube amp to electret or electrostatic headphones. Listening to an amp with headphones is an intimate experience, like watching a bug under a magnifying glass. All of the differences are accentuated. Every leg, wing and move is noticed. Even when there is not a huge difference between tubes on speakers, the nuances are clear with tubes on phones. All of the pluses, all of the minuses too.

On my old Stax SR-60 electret headphones, the mid-range accuracy is excellent, the crispness and clearity of electrostatic type speakers. The detail is amazing and precise. The entire audio range is very flat sounding. The "color" of electrets is no color. This is both good and bad. The bass is solid, but not full. Present, but not boomy. The mid-range and highs are breathtaking. In short, the sound is spectacular.

On my unit, the bass rolls off from 63 Hz down. So while it is not as deep as dark earth, it is natural and accurate. Like a Scandinavian skier, it is lean, taut and fast.

One enjoyable noticeable difference with tube amplification seems to be in the highs. The cymbals don't just shine, they shimmer. The chimes don't just tingle, they tinkle. Sharp notes don't just attack, they slice.

Of course on my unit, that may be the frequency response of the electrets, which although quite linear from 100 to 4 kHz, it slowly and steadily tips up through out the entire spectrum. Like a car with too much in the trunk, the closer the Stax get to the high end, the more they elevate the sound. Perhaps this was considered good clean sound 15 years ago. Coupled with my Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour amps, they remain one of the best reproductions of sound I've heard.

The microwatts that phones require are easily and nicely produced by the tubes. In fact, the low wattage is where SS have higher THD, so listening with headphones not only gets you up close and personal, but also lets you listen to the differences in distortion that "tubophiles" think is so important. In fact, I don't know why I didn't mention this sooner, since I would never listen to my old Stax electrets on an SS amp.

To use any flea powered serving in an audio meal, the wine, the appetizers and the entrée - the entire audio system - must be designed as carefully as a Washington hostess. Everything is planned around the amps and their delicate sound.

This is not so when using low powered amps with headphones. For headphones, like ultra-efficient horns, require mere slices of watts to idle at normal speeds and only brief bursts of moderate wattage to sing like Ella. Approximately one and 3/4 watts will power electret phones to a slow music average of 87 dB on the C scale. So a 10 to 25 watt tube amp gives them fusion energy, enough to send them to one end of the galaxy and back.

Although the mid range on phones powered by SS amps is fast and sharp, clean and cold, it is emotionally wonderful when powered by the 2A3 Paramours. Together they sparkle and shine; the attacks are fast and startling. Small background sound effects that the engineer/producer adds to a disc are merely ear candy on speakers, but with electret phones pumped up on tube power, they are surgical strikes to the ear. You can hear every cut the engineer makes with Stax. None of the notes are hidden behind the curtains. They are center stage and the kleig lights are on full.

Electret phones make all music sound as sweet as sugar. Located directly on the ear, the strings pluck at the tender parts of the ear, the bass thumps your brain stem, the highs flow over your lobes like liquid Jell-O and the singer stands right between your eyes. Her breath is on your neck.

The bass problems that full size electrostatics have in the real world is easily mastered in the room against your ears. Do you think that even good speakers lack the dynamics, speed and power to faithfully reproduce the 113 dB rib cage rattle of a 100 Hz stomp on the kick drum? Well, the tube and head phone combination faces that challenge like Mark McGwire - head on and batting one out of the park.

For powering phones is not a game for muscle amps like Krell or Pass. Muscle amps have little advantage in this solution. It is a game for amps with the finesse of Tiger Woods or Andre Agassi.

Oh sure, they still sound tall and thin, which is one of the reasons that conventional radiator headphones dominate the headphone market. Although described as somewhat cold and analytical, compared to the warmth of highly recommended phones like the Grado, the smooth quality of the tipped up sound is excellent.

They have the liquid burnish of silver, not the warm malleability of pewter. This is because the Stax are nothing if not neutral. They capture minute nuances in the recording, making the music performance come alive in a way that few other headphones do. They extract details that my speakers and other phones leave unattended. They show off the details and delicacy of dining on tubes.

cwm15.gif

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HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 10-23-2001 at 09:39 PM

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I'm sure even lame SET amps could drive most headphones to satisfactory levels cleanly, plus they probably would be a natural antidote for those "ruthlessly revealing" electostatic 'phones. The only ones I ever tried sounded like bacon frying; I couldn't get 'em off my head fast enough! I don't remember the amplification. I like my Sennheisers -- nice and smooth! But to each his own. Maybe they're the antidote for hard SS sound. HA

I remember TIM being a very big deal for a while back in the deep, dark seventies. Can't recall the company, but I'm sure the ads were for a big Japanese receiver -- this was right during the receiver power wars - might have been Sansui or Marantz. Anyone recall...or care? ha again

I don't even know how to respond to this statement:

""Objectively, Tubes are considerably better than solid state.

A solid state device has inherently MUCH, MUCH higher distortion than a tube"

--Spiderman

Right. And Mars has a much, much higher concentration of oxygen in its atmosphere than earth.

Come back to Earth Spido, and take a good, deep breath. You're starting to lose your grasp of reality! HA #3 cwm20.gif

Have you actually read any tests (oops, those don't mean anything anyway, right?) of amplifiers lately? Practically every toob amp will sound different into different speaker loads. Most have trouble meeting their own published specs. Most give trouble of some kind before the test is concluded. Most cost an arm and a leg. Most can not control a typical high excursion / low sensitivity woofer. Most are noisey. Many roll off the frequency extremes. And nearly ALL of them have audible distortion when driving real world speakers at real world levels. Or at least that is what the reviewers say. Of course, many reviewers LIKE that warm, fuzzy distorted sound. But again, that does not meet the very well accepted definition of high fidelity -- faithfully reproducing a signal with no audible distortion, noise or coloration. Any sound an amp adds is distortion. Even if it is subjectively a good sound.

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JDMcCall

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James and Spider. Check the HK website. They've been going on about this for decades. In fact I think James is recalling HK ads from the seventies. While HK was spec'ing and leading the way on this, brands like Pioneer, Marantz and several others were poo pooing wideband, low feedback designs in favor of 200 wpc, high damping factor(thus high negative feedback) amps.

So to get back to your statement about specs for TIM and IM, HK specs it and explains it.

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Hey Colin. You seemed to be sold on the performance of electret transducers. I have a Micro-Acoustics 2002 cartridge that over 20 years old though the stylus is fairly new. You would love this cartridge. The accolades(sp) you've heaped on your electret headphones applies equally to this wonderful cartridge.

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You know, I wonder sometimes why I even come back in here. What was once mildly amusing has suddenly turned sour. It's sad when you post valid arguments and the person you are posting to probably barely gets to the third sentence. I just dont understand people like James McCall. The arguments are not good. The logic is faulty. When a good point is presented from all ends of the spectrum that refutes his statements, he comes back with the exact same sentences, notably, this definition of Hi-Fidelity and his apparent misunderstanding of the misuse of specs and the subsequent relation to sound. Personally, I can almost bet the man has not listened to any tube amps; I can almost count on it. He has not quoted one single make or type, just arcane, cliche references of the standard anti-tube banter, quotes that dont really even get paid lip service anymore, even in the mainstream magazines, much less the more informed forums.

I cannot believe that in 2001 I am reading references to this tube vs solid state debate. This forum is The Forum that Time Forgot...

kh

ps- I got my Cornwalls. Review and comments to appear somewhere within...

f>s>
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Ahh, what's the difference, you like what you like. Besides that new TriPath digital amp kit is the best amp I ever heard, tube or SS. I've heard the amp on Lowthers, JBLs and Altecs and it's superb, got many heads to scratching at a Chicago Bottlehead meeting, yes indeed. My buddy Kurt has only $400 in the thing and it's superb, this thing is revolutionary.

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You are right, indeed, Tom. And to be honest, I have had and enjoyed some fine solid state amps in my life; in fact, I have had far more costly and well-received solid state amps then tube amps if I were to add them all up. But my favorite category of SS devices are the relatively inexpensive ones that surprise.

One of my favorite SS amps I have ever owned was a bargain SS device that made me a believer in B&K years ago. It was the B&K ST-202 stereo amp using MOSFETs and putting out around 120wpc or so. This was not a perfect amp but an extremely musical one - it just killed the Adcoms which were all the rage with their Bipolar transistors, big sound, and rather ragged treble region. That amp when married to a tube preamp just sounded very RIGHT. If one remembers, ole Sam Tellig used to go ape over the B&K ST-140; well, the 202 was a much better amp with far more control and dynamics while retaining the sweetness and musical nature of the 140.

Another old inexpensive favorite was an old NAD 3020a I used to own in the late 70s that my Mom is now using. I sometimes throw some stuff on when home and am amazed by the excellent sound from this little box. It still has a little magic about it and is clean and articulate, especially given its age and use (or lack of).

I have read much about digital amps but have not heard any models yet. So it wowed the Bottlehead contingent? heh.... that would have been amusing to witness. Why dont you describe it?

kh

f>s>

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s y s t e m

Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point

Rega Planet

Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Creek OBH-12 Passive

Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

DIYCable Wire - Various

ProAc Mini Towers

1977 Klipsch Cornwall 1

Alternate System:

EICO HF-81

ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL

EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner

Sumo Aurora Tuner

Nakamichi CR-7af>s>

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there are plenty of arguements that Jim could make for SS power other than "the specs don't lie" -

most of what he says is, unfortunately, true, but his conclusion is illogical -

the subjective enjoyment of music and movies is the only reason that we bother with this hobby at all -

it is a good thing that musical instruements do not have to meet the same test - produce sound with out any audible distortation -

and while I am not going to help him out, I am pleased to see some one take the other side. Bully for him. I am also glad that one lone Senator voted against the war in Afghanistan, but I am dissapointed so few leaders disagreed with this course of action. Brave dissent makes this country great! But, I should point out that the lone Senator from Berekeley is wrong and so is Jim -

in all fairness to the Stax, I reported on the admirable qualities I enjoy with tubes, but the things are so uncomfortable compared to the Sennheisers that I would not purchase them again -

I too am interested in the whispers about improvements in DHT amps, I would like to hear what amps with natural hormones sound like ...

cwm1.gif

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HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 10-24-2001 at 09:35 AM

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Mobile--The Tripath. My buddy Kurt Chang has one; you buy this little module and build your own power supply, you supply your own hardware and cabinet too, Kurt's is in a couple of simple wood boxes. First time I heard the amp was at a Bottlehead meeting at Alan Hendler's, over Alan's Lowther Medallions. Now Alan has a very nice custom 45 amp and when Kurt hooked-up the TriPath nobody was expecting good sound but people were really impressed and surprised. Next time I heard it Kurt brought it over to my place and we used it to drive some big JBL-Altec hybrids---Altec 515B woofers in JBL 4560 basshorns with JBL LE-175 top end, once again the sound was excellent. Later at a Chicago horn club meeting I held the TriPath drove my Altec 605As. All seemed impressed by the TriPath. I think the sound is very pure and clean, great detail and clarity without a hint of harshness or earwire. And it has lots of power too, 200 watts a channel. The damned thing is really all I'd want in an amp. This amp impressed some fanatical tubies, it's for real.

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James,

The big triodes are more linear than BiPolar or FET devices. In and of themselves, they are among the most linear amplificaiton devices ever created.

As I said in my first post, which you obviously did not even read, SS devices almost always require the use of feedback when actually applied, in order to achieve decent distortion numbers.

Take something like the Zen circuit and remove the feedback, and it will have higher distortion than a good tube.

It's interesting that some people utterly reject the colorations and distortion products of a tube amp, and then readily accept the colorations and distortion products of a big SS amp, and say one is Hi Fi and the other is not. It's even more interesting when you consider which types of distortion actually have a negative effect on the sound.

You say that people who like tubes just like the way it colors the sound? Perhaps they just ACCEPT the limitations of a tube amp, because they are unwilling to accept those of solid state?

I would love an amp w/ bandwidth from DC to 100khz, and super-low output resistance, and hundreds of watts of power on tap, and so on. The proverbial 'Straight Wire With Gain,' but if getting specs like that means switching to solid state and using lots of feedback, well... no thanks, because it just plain SOUNDS BAD. As I said previously... if that's Hi-Fi, if Hi-Fi means sacrificing sound for specs, well then I want nothing to do with it.

But that doesn't have to be the case; what is really important is what specs you are measuring, you can measure those that look great in a brochure, or you can measure the specs that have been shown to actually have an impact on the subjective quality of the sound.

Charlie G

------------------

"What's that noise?" "It's the carpet, it kinda mutes the speakers." "No, it sounded more like the chandalier falling."

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OK, Ok, y'all be gettin' testy on me now. No need, friends. Like I've already said, If you like the sound of tubes, fine. I don't have any quarrel with that. I don't know what y'all gettin' yer tails over the line about. I'm not p.o'd. Didn't y'all see my little winkin' smiley faces? If to you, toobs is the way to go, then by all means, go all the way with toobs. I just have a hard time lettin' you go with all that magical, mystery midrange blather. Not in light of the fact that every objective, open-minded tester over the past...geez, at least thirty years has laid the source of that magic to be nothing more "magical" than high magnitudes of second-order harmonic distortion.

Now, to clear up a few things:

Contrary to statements made in this thread, I do not buy audio gear solely on spec. But they are a factor.

Yes, I have listened to toob amps. But not extensively. And I have never owned one.

I do not believe SS amps are perfect. It's just that the imperfections of the good ones tend to be very benign to me. And I am very sensitive to excess noise in any component, so that too, tilts me towards SS gear.

Concerning my idea of what hi-fi is; hey, I didn't make up the definition. So let's just tell it like it is: some people like their systems to be as neutral as possible (hi-fi), while others prefer to put together systems on the basis of what sounds the most pleasing to them (euphony). Now by saying that, I am not denigrating the "euphonists", at all. So there is no need to take offense.

Spider, exactly what are the audible "colorations and distortion products" you are blanketly applying to solid state amps? And also, don't many tube amplifiers also use feedback? Locally at least, if not globally. Does that make them bad in and of itself?

Mobile Homeless, if I sound "sour", I apologize. I don't feel that way. I'm just havin' a good old time here. I like gettin you bottleheads all gassed up.cwm32.gif

Colin, you seem a reasonable sort, but I must comment on the recurring point of comparing tubes in music production devices (guitar amps, mics, mixers, etc.), to tube use in music reproduction devices; the former is creating an original sound that reflects the artistic intent of the artists and producers. So whatever sound tubes help them achieve, is at their sole discretion. While the latter, at least according to most people, is supposed to faithfully recreate what the recording artist laid down in the studio or concert venue; not add more "sound" to it.

"I'm so glad I'm livin' in the USA" -- Chuck Berry

...just think, guys, we could be dodgin' laser-guided bombs in Kandahar. THEN, we'd really have somethin' to be concerned about!

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JDMcCall

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