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Tube amp neophyte


Danartdis

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James,

I have never been good with using vague wording to describe sound, and I will not attempt to here.

And I'd stress again that low THD numbers doesn't mean the amp doesn't present other types of distortion (such as intermodulation products, also problems with the harmonic spectra and other things caused by global feedback).

As for local feedback, it is unavoidable. The plate resistance in a tube is a sort of local feedback that is essentially instantaneous and does not suffer any of the ill effects of global feedback.

I guess I would ask why exactly you feel that SS presents a more 'neutral' sound because it has (for instance) lower 2nd order harmonic products, if other distortion products are present and ultimately also have a negative effect on the sound. Does this other stuff not matter?

While Person A might hear a big SS amps as very neutral & clean, but a SE tube amp as colored, Person B might hear the SE tube amp has having the most neutral & clear harmonics, while the SS is colored by a grainy treble and a poor midrange.

Or are your ears the ones by which neutral & eupohic should be judged? Obviously nobody would say 'yes' to that question (except explicitly in reference to thier own system). So we tend to fall back on objective measurements, which are important.

But then we can't suddenly say that some kinds of distortion & the common problems with SS are unimportant. Or perhaps they just go hand-in-hand with HiFi?

Basically what I'm saying is that I reject that people who prefer tubes do so only because it adds some kind of euphonic distortion. Part of it might just be the fact that tubes are just plain BETTER at some things than solid state. For an example of some of these things, see my previous posts in this thread, and see Colin's other thread "tube vs SS part two; zero feedback," the stuff by Lynn Olson.

Charlie

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"What's that noise?" "It's the carpet, it kinda mutes the speakers." "No, it sounded more like the chandalier falling."

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My dear Mr. McCall,

If you have never owned or lived with tubes, I don't think it is any way fair for you to pass judgement on them in ANY way. You couldn't possibly know if "toobs" (as you so distainfully call them) are "distortion generators" to your oh-so-sensitive ears! If you don't know of what you speak, it's much better to just keep your mouth shut, rather than upset those of us who have lived extensively with all kinds of gear-- current prod., vintage, tube, S/S, etc.

and have INFORMED opinions.

I have been involved in this "hobby" for 30 years and have owned literally dozens and dozens of amps, 30 or 40 pairs of speakers, countless phono cartridges ,etc.

I also spend a lot of time at concerts and clubs (4-6 times per month)listening to LIVE music--jazz for the most part. My aim in striving for "high fidelity" in my home is to get as close to the sound and feeling of LIVE music as possible. I could give a rat's *** about test data and specifications!

For me, tubes (and horns, of course) get me closer to the sound of REAL music and that's what matters most.

If I were a Dr. Dre or Eminem fan, I'm sure I'd need some monster Krell amps (just to name one possibility) and ANYTHING but horns, but that's something else again . . .

I've even tried 3-watt 2A3 SET amps and found them somewhat lacking in the lower end--thier glorious midrange notwithstanding--perhaps with a sub? But I've never been able to get a subwoofer to meld with the music in my setup--maybe I've just tried the wrong ones (REL and Linn to name two).

I listen to my "hi-fi" an average of 15 hours per week.

I have one question for you--do you even like music? I ask, because I run into "hi-fi" people all the time who are into GEAR, not music.

For what it's worth-- here's my current rig:

McIntosh MC-30 mono amps (GEC KT-66 outputs) (2)

McIntosh C-22 preamp

Thorens TD-124/SME 3012/Ortofon SPU/GT-E

B.A.T. VK-D5 CD player

Klipsch Cornwalls (1963 vintage-vertical horn)

McIntsoh MR-71 tuner (more tubes!)

McIntosh MI-3 scope

Silver Audio and Wireworld wires.

I listen to my "hi-fi" an average of 15 hours per week.

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And I thought my political discussions were heated.

While I am inclined to support what James has to say, I have heard some tubes or toobs like Cary that sounded magical. It doesn't have to be a either or proposition. I'm inclined to go less with tubes because I wonder if some of that magic is the relatively high measured distortion. Also, I am most concerned about replacing tubes and possibly have an entirely different circuit. Having said that, I've heard some SS I didn't like, like some of the Krell amps. It's all just taste though and I really can't say I've heard a hi fi amp, tube or SS, that sounded awful.

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Whew I was advoiding this thread because I am about to get a tube receiver and I wanted to hear it and come to my own conclusions. I think I will still be able to do this :-) however I have a question for the tubies. When you guys say "extended listening period", how long are you talking about? An hour or two? More? Also if you guys happen to have an SPL meter around I would be interested in knowing at what level you normally listen at. I know that this sounds anal but I want to be able to compare tube experience to tube experience and be able to have a discussion based on them. Feel free to e-mail me if you don't want to post it here.

Thanks!!

------------------

...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...

My Home Theater Page

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I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

If a K-Horn (Belle, LaScala) puts out 104 dB one meter, one watt: Then it puts out 94 dB at 0.1 watt, and 84 dB at 0.01 watt. These are general numbers and some juggling might be done because of more distant listning, and the effect of having two of them. It probably all balances out.

I suspect it fair to say the people listening to K-Horns are hearing music fairly loud 84 dB at their listening position while the amp is putting out 0.01 watt. And certainly some parts of music is down at 74 dB, or 0.001 watt. One milliwatt.

Is 84 dB loud? In my experience, yes. I'd like to have comments by people setting up HT systems with a Radio Shack sound meter. I think they'll agree. It can be ear piercing.

So this is the problem. We don't typically see distortion specs on amps at 0.01 or 0.001 watt levels.

It is not rational to judge tubes or semiconductors amps as a whole. And in our application, it is not rational to judge the merits of an amp on specs quoted at an output of 10 watts or 100 watts; at near full clipping output.

I suspect that if distortion levels of amps at the 10 milliwatt level and 1 millwatt level were measured, there might be a correlation to perceived performance with the horns. This is independent of whether they are semiconductor or tube based.

Gil

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Well, I think I'd have a hard time continuing this little exchange without repeating myself, and besides, it seems to be heading in the direction of... "Who has the most golden ears and the thickest faceplates?... Will the real audiophile please stand up?" I don't intend to go there. That's just childish.

Allen, I do admire your Mac gear. I'm sure it sounds great. If I were in the financial position to do so, I am sure I would spend much more on hardware than I have. But the fact that I am not in that position bothers me not one whit. I am quite content (within the limits imposed by 2-channel recording) with my Sony ES stuff, most of which is pushing 11 years old.

I guess I'm a bit of an audiophile anachronism myself; klipschorns, (inexpensive)solid state amplification, and (inexpensive)digital sources. According to the accepted audiophile wisdom, that should be a recipe for a migraine. But it works for me. And btw, when I say "inexpensive", I mean by golden ear standards -- not by mine!

And yes, Al, I really do listen to my two thousand or so CD's. I may appreciate music just as much as you, even. And ya know, I have to wonder about anybody who has gone through dozens of amps, and as many speakers as you say you have. Why do you suppose you "can't get no satisfaction"? Maybe what you really need is some nice "mid-fi" gear (I know y'all just love that term.) to go with those cornwalls.

And mobilehomeless -- geez, you need to get rid of those wimpy English Pro-Acs! Get you some he-man klipsch speakers and we'll talk!

Well, I suppose I've offended you all by now. If I haven't, well, it wasn't for lack of effort on my part! cwm32.gif

Happy listening one and all!

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JDMcCall

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SHEESH !!

What the HELLO is going on Here?

Since when is it heretical to enjoy tube amps instead of solid state amps or fiber needles instead of steel needles ? For crying out loud folks !!!

Tubes do a marvelous job on most things audio and Solid State amps also do a great job on most things audio.

There are(some,not universally acceptable, arguments to be said regarding the TRUTH

about high fidelity:

THE SOURCE OF ALL WISDOM PRONOUNCETH!! :

If ye hear the best it is not thy duty to lead all the unwashed to Nirvanna - Point them to Nirvanna and hope that they see the path.

If they refuse to see THE TRUTH - Then let them wallow in their Solid State Nirvanna or in their Tube Nirvanna.

I love Tubes and being something of a Babylonian Bimbo I have to confess that I have at times enjoyed SS amps.

GET OVER IT!!

------------------

It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca. 1304 BCE)

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Danartdis,

Over the years I have become an agnostic concerning the arguments about the differences in the way electronics "sound". I cannot prove people don't hear what they say they hear, and they can't prove that they do. So I will not enter that discussion. I can tell you some of my experience

I once owned Dynaco ST-70 tube amps that drove the Klipschorns I owned at one time, and later, a pair of Legacy Focus speakers. To my ears, the only diffrence in the sound produced compared to my solid state pieces was related to various strange noises that the amps emitted at random internvals. Perhaps my ears are not "golden" enough or my auditory memory is too short, but that was my experience.

I will say that, IMHO, there are valid reasons for tube amplifiers to sound different from solid state. These reasons relate to how the high output impedance of some tube amps can effect the frequency response of the speaker it is connected to, the fact that many tube amps do not have a flat frequency response themselves into reactive loads, and that most tube amps have distortion levels that are actually higher than the Klipsch speakers many of us use. I do believe that there are people out there with hearing sensitive enough, and systems transparent enough to discern these differences.

Whether or not you would hear these differences, and feel that they are "better" is something that I do not think any of us can say. You will have to try for yourself, just as I did.

I hope that this will be of some help.

------------------

L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II

Surround: Klipsch RS-3

Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2

Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132

AMP: McIntosh MC-7205

DVD: McIntosh MVP-831

CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer

Turntable: Denon DP-72L

Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1

T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905

SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100

Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000

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There are many diferences between the two that we have not discussed yet, such as negative feedback or no feedback -

Stereophile explained some of the differences this way: "Pentode/tetrode tube amps tend to broadcast dynamics in three dimensions -- the way instruments themselves do -- so that the instrumental image seems to change in size, shape, and volume as intensities wax and wane.

Solid-state amps tend to focus dynamics, as they focus images, more tightly. In terms of musical realism, hearing a trumpet playing fortissimo through a solid-state amp is a bit like watching a film run in reverse; its as if the trumpets image were getting denser, more focused as it gets louder, rather than growing larger and bloomier and more "freed up," as it would in life. If the Krell's <$26,000 pair of Krell FBP 650>"control" has one drawback, it is in the slightly over-focused way it images (not in tone color or dynamics)." -

My tube pre-amp dial supposedly approximates actual power use better than typical receivers (where 10:00 on the dial may be about ½ of the amp power available). I am using a pair of upgraded Bottlehead Paramour mono block 2A3 tube amps, rated at 3.5 watts at 5% THD, to drive my Cornwall 1 1/3s. Total output must be somewhat higher.

I listen most of the time at 9:00 on the dial, which might approximate .875 watts at my listening seat. This equates to c scale slow musical averages in the low to mid 70s. That is not "loud", but it is above normal conversation levels.

At 12:00 on the dial, musical averages are mid 80 dBs, peaks are mid 90s and the wattage might approximate 1 3/4 watts. That is party level loud - 10 or 11 on the dial is a good volume for the rock n' roll songs that make you want to get up and dance.

Only once have I played the combination at 3:00 on the dial. That was with the new 2A3 amps and I wanted to see how smooth they sounded at unbearable rock concert painful levels. They will replicate a 1 kHz tone at 110 dB with the dial swung all the way to the right. That is painfully LOUD.

I believe that objective comparisons of SS and tube amps must examine the actual frequency response, THD plus noise and power output curves in the same environment. Only examination of the charts distortion specs on amps at 0.01 or 0.001 watt levels reveal the charactoristics that might sensed with horns.

Solid state amps, like the super powerful Carver I had once or the super clean Pioneer I have now, have tremendous amounts of Total Harmonic Distortion down in the micro-watt range. Their THD ratings are from the middle of their output curve, where THD is at its lowest, not the low end or the high end, where THD climbs like a rocket after lift off.

I believe that one of the best reasons for SS class D, H & T powered sub-woofers is that it frees up the mid and high-range drivers for use with bottle power. (Not to mention the thrilling enjoyment with movies.)Together I think they make the best of both worlds. I hope to bi-amp my big old horns someday, but that looks to be around the New Year corner.

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Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 10-28-2001 at 12:46 PM

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OK. This seems to be the horse the toobies want to ride, so let's just see how far she can go before she throws a shoe. The claim is that tubes "sound better" because they produce much lower distortion at the miniscule power levels where the music lives. Particularly with high-sensitivity speakers. What they fail to mention is that at these same low power levels, the system noise tends to mask the THD, even that of SS components. This point they seem to have conveniently overlooked.

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JDMcCall

This message has been edited by James D McCall on 10-29-2001 at 11:45 PM

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didnt this one get technical (and slightly abusive) all of the sudden.

Well, people have been to war over dumber things I suppose...

Personally I will happily continue to sit with one foot in both camps, subject to the music I am listening to..

try not to kill each other guys- there will be less poeple to converse with.

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Just out of curiosity I have looked up the manufacturers THD spec's for the two solid state amps I own. They are as follows:

McIntosh MC7205: ".005% maximum at any power level from 250 milliwatts to rated power per channel from 20Hz to 20,000Hz, all channels operating."

Rotel RB-956AX: "no more than .05% (1 watt per channel power output, 8ohms)."

Then I played a couple of song excerpts loud enough to measure about 80-82 db at my listening position. The power output meters on my McIntosh showed readings. of .2 of a watt to just under 2 watts.

My take on all of this is as follows:

1. Even if the distortion of my two amps was 10 times greater than that specified, it would be an inaudible (IMHO) .5%. And it would have to be 50 to 100 times worse to get to the level of most of the single ended low powered tube amps that I have seen specs on.

2. At normal music listening levels (75 to 95 db peaks) with speakers as efficent as our Klipsch's, I do not believe that the THD from either the low powered tube amps, or solid state amps would be audible. It would only become an issue (IMHO)at listening levels that, long term, would damage our hearing anyway.

Just my 2 cents, FWIW.

------------------

L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II

Surround: Klipsch RS-3

Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2

Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132

AMP: McIntosh MC-7205

DVD: McIntosh MVP-831

CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer

Turntable: Denon DP-72L

Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1

T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905

SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100

Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000

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