Stu Pidass Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I'm new to the powered sub thing (&ignorant). Paradigms manual is totally useless. Despite reviewing previous posts on the subject I still am not sure how best to hook up this sub. I want to use it in my HT and also in 2 channel audio. Currently I have speaker wire from the main outs of the amp to the main ins on the sub. This seems to be the only way to get it working in 2 channel audio. A seperate set of speaker wires also run to my Cornwall mains. I also have the subout (lfe) connected to the sud using a y-splitter. Am I missing anyting? Also should I set my mains to large or small. I read varying opinions on this. My own experience in 2 channel audio finds the large setting much preferrable. What about the crossover? Any thoughts form experienced users? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 stu, take it u'd like to use the direct mode for the stereo listinin. that takes out all the dsp processing & should give u a better sound for listinin to 2 channel sources. running the speaker cable thru the sub from the front posts to the corns is the way to go there. just set sub:no, fronts large & all others small. get rid of the sub out line connection as it then turned off. lfe will also go out of the fronts to sub to corns. my guess is the sub crossover will produce the best sound w/ the corns somewhere from 40-55hz. i like mine at 50hz. once u have everything set, move it around to where it blends best for u. u may then also wanna try changing the sub's phase to see if u get more solid sounding bass. key words are tight & solid bass. sometimes u'll get more bass inverting phase, but not necessarily better quality. & again here it can also be a matter of your tastes. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front) Klipsch KLF C7 (center) Klipsch Cornwall I (rear) Klipsch KLF C7 (rear center) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer B&K Reference 30 tuner/preamp/processor Acurus A200X5 power amp Marantz MA6100 mono amp (rear center) Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box Monster HTS2500 & HT200 powercenters Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3, RC-3 Marantz SR-8000 receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Technics dual cassette deck Monster HTS1000 powercenter Bedroom: Sony STR-DE935 receiver Technics cube speakers rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted October 22, 2001 Author Share Posted October 22, 2001 Thanks for the reply Boa but I'm still confused. Here is my understanding: 1 - Run my speaker cables from the Main Outs on the SR8000 to the sub. 2 - Then Run speaker cables directly from the Sub to my Cornwalls? (Here's where I'm cofused). I now have seperate cables running from the SR8000 mains to the Cornwalls. 3 - Set the fronts to large and all others to small. 4 - Set the sub to "No". 5 - Remove the subout RCA cable as it no longer is used with teh sub at "No". I currently have speaker cable from the amp mains to the sub and another set of cables from those same amp mains directly to my Cornwalls. Now if I set the sub to "No" and the mains to large, the LFE signals will be sent to the mains and the sub. Correct? This also will do away with the need for the LFE cable. Why would I want to split the LFE duty? Wouldn't it be better to have the sub look after that exclusively? I'm running Heresy surrounds and center channel which, of course, do extent decently low. Why would I want to set them all to small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 stu, not sure but that sub probably has a high pass filter which could limit the bass to the cornwalls when connected to the sub. if sub has a selector switch put it as low as possible (usually 80 hz). u may then want to experiment w/ that vs. keeping them the way you have them wired now which would bypass any high pass filter in the sub. when u set sub:no all lfe is rerouted to the fronts set to large. if you wire the corns & sub seperately then both get the full range of low bass & lfe. if u wire thru the sub to the corns then the sub's low pass (the crossover control) & any high pass will limit the low bass & lfe going to the corns. not that that's a bad thing. i'd try it both ways to see which works best. 3 reasons to set speakers to small. 1st it frees the higher frequency drivers from the current sapping lows & should make them more dynamic. 2nd, rerouting to them, the sub & your cornwalls should handle the lows better. 3rd, should prevent possible bass cancelation, standing waves, problems like that in your room. hope this helps. sub set-up & bass mgmt is a pretty tricky thang. i know it takes some experimentation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 stu, since u do have cornwalls for mains ('nuff said), u may want to consider this as i did when i was using my sr8000 in a 5.1 set-up. just use only a line connection from the sub-out to pw (no speaker cable to sub). set sub:yes & all speakers to small. then use the direct mode. when u play a 2 channel source like a music cd then u only get output from the corns. when u play a 5.1 source like a dvd then u get full output from all channels & LFE goes only to the sub. then u can switch by remote to a dsp mode like 5 channel stereo or stereo. then all low bass will go to sub w/ that fixed cut-off of 80hz. should sound best all together but u can experiment w/ large settings. that gives u some flexability w/ the remote. those corns do great on their own w/ 2 channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted October 22, 2001 Author Share Posted October 22, 2001 Thanks Boa. Your correct about the High Pass filter on the sub. It seems to me 2 channel audio will be negatively effected if the corns are wired through the sub and not the amp (or will it?). I enjoy HT very much but 2 channel is my passion so I want to insure it's functioning at its highest potential. The sub has an adjustable crossover dial from 50hz to 150 hz. I assume that's what you mean by a "selector switch". I'll have to experiment with that thing. I just don't know where to start. If I change the wiring so the sub is hooked to the amp mains and then wire the corns directly to the high pass out of the sub and set the sub to "No" and fronts to large, the LFE will still be fed to the sub because they're connected to the amp mains. I presume the built in sub amp will then drive the Cornwalls. The Marantz SR8000 is so beautifully musical that I'm hesitant to use the sub's amp to drive my Cornwalls. I just can't imagine it coming close to the Marantz and two channnel is a major concern. If that's the case, I really can't see even trying that setup. I'll just have to keep experimenting with the Large/small settings and the sub Yes/No in combination with placement, sub volume and crossover adjustemnts. You've been a great help Boa and I at least now have a better understanding of the issues. Any further words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated. Regards, Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 stu, either way u wire the corns, the sr8000 amp will drive them. the pw amp will only drive it's driver. all the pw does is apply it's crossovers to the signal to the corns. by the selectable switch i meant the high pass. some subs have a switch between 80 or 100hz. the crossover control knob is for the lowpass. in short, the low pass controls how much (in frequency not volume) bass is sent to the sub & the highpass controls how much goes to the mains. why the subs don't have the high pass go to the same point as where the low pass is set i don't know & have never gotten a good explanation. guess just another one of those thx standards. (but we don't have THX speakers for cryin out loud). getting that pw to blend well w/ the corns for 2 channel could be pretty tricky. u may want to just do that last set-up i mentioned, using the direct mode. i've been all thru the ropes on this sr8000 bass mgmt. thing. any ?s please do ask. just that this area is a real inexact science to say the least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleggatt Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Do not run the speaker wire from the sub back to the cornwalls. The subs high pass is set at 120hz. You will cross the speakers way to high. Just run the wire from the posts on the cornwall or receiver to the sub and dictch the RCA cable. Set the Marantz to Large and no sub. You will be off and rocking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted October 23, 2001 Author Share Posted October 23, 2001 Thanks for the info Kleggatt. I'm curious where you got the information regarding the High Pass being set at 120 hz. It sure wasn't from that useless manual. Are you also running the PW2200? If so what mains are you using? (just curious) Regards, Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted October 23, 2001 Author Share Posted October 23, 2001 Forgot to mention in my last reply. The manual simply states the High Pass Filter will reduce the output to the mains by 6db. No mention of the crossover setting. By all accounts this is one very fine sub but the documentation SUCKS BLUE WHALE!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 stu, if it's any consolation, often the finest components have the worst manuals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleggatt Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Stu, I sent off an email to Paradigms tech support and this is the response he gave me: ---------------------------------- Hi Ken If I correctly understand your question, I don't think there is any advantage for you to use an X-20 in your system. The PW-2200's built-in, Speaker-Level High-Pass filter is set at 120 Hz which is exactly the same as the X-20's. If you use this connection, no signals above 120 Hz will reach the Mains and, if you set the X-20's Cut-Off control at 40Hz, no frequencies above 40 Hz will reach the subwoofer. The PW-2200 also provides a Line-Level High-Pass filter set at 80 Hz. Sincerely, Gary Takeda Paradigm Technical Support ---------------------------------------- So as you can see running the wire from the speakers from the sub back to your mains would not be a very good solution. The Cornwalls should be cut much lower. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 People see that high pass on the sub and overreact. the highpass is not a brickwall. Actually more the opposite. It sounds like a 6db/Octave which is a pretty gentle slope. 120hz is kind of high though. but it meant to smooth the transition from sub to mains, not deny the mains the bass they deserve. even with a 120hz high pass with a 6DB per octave slope you should get an attenuation of the cornwalls of 3db at 80hz and 9db at 40hz. that's not a real biggy. i EQ my bass -12db at some frequencies. just try all the different hook-ups & see how they work. the sub & receiver companies arent exactly working together. that's what makes it so complicated. I think you'll find that the way it works best is to set all the speakers to small and use a line interconnect to the sub. LFE will sound better with a line connection. you can listen to cornwalls full range for stereo using that direct mode. that's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted October 24, 2001 Author Share Posted October 24, 2001 Thanks all for your input. Sounds like there's really no one correct way and nothing short of alot of experimentation will reveal what works best. The PW2200 does provide a Line-Level High-Pass filter (80hz). This, from what I understand, should be fed back to the SR8000 via an RCA cable. I have NO idea how this works or what it's designed to accomplish. Can anyone enlighten me? The problem here is the SR8000 does not seem to have the "In" jack(s) to accomodate it. Does anyone know if the SR8000 can accomodate this option & if so, how? I suspect I'll end up simply hooking the sub & Cornwalls to my main outs, set the mains to "Large" & sub to "NO". That way both the Cornwall & the sub will receive the LFE signnal and I'll be able to use the sub in 2 channel (which is really my passion). Hopefully I won't need to adjust the sub volume everytime I switch from HT to 2 channel. There just doesn't seem to be a better solution to accomodate LFE & 2 Channel at the same time. Thanks again everyone. Regards, Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 stu, the sub line outs only work when you can run them directly to a power amp, ie, putting the sub in the loop between a seperate preamp & power amp. unless u could put it in the tape jacks loop but i wouldn't mess w/ that. that is strange your high pass on speaker level is so high at 120hz. still experimentation is right. try it all different ways as it only takes a few minutes to change hook-ups around. with sr8000, klf-30 mains & vel hgs-18 sub i tried: -speaker level thru sub to 30s (vel high pass at 80hz) -speaker level to sub & seperate speak level run to 30s -fronts preouts to sub line level & fronts speak level to 30s -sub preout to sub & fronts speaker level to 30s this last way actually sounded best for both music & HT in my room with sub:yes & all speakers set to small. that just seemed what the sr8000 prefered. setting sub:no the LFE just wasn't as dynamic. the vel did a good job picking up where the 30s were cut off (80hz) for the low bass on music. i used direct mode for 5.1 sources/2 channel music (just the 30s, no sub) & sometimes the 5 channel stereo for 2 channel music sources to get all the speaks & sub going. i just switched the low pass crossover out on the sub & used the sr8000 for bass management. but i knew the 80hz cross wasn't best so i got seperates & moved the sr8000 back for stereo listinin. now i set the speaks small but drop the B&K pre/pro down to 50hz low & high cross. sounds near perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted October 24, 2001 Author Share Posted October 24, 2001 OK Boa let me confirm I understand your last recommendation (the one you said worked best for you). 1 - Hook up the sub simply using the sub out from the SR8000 to the sub with an RCA connector. 2 - Then simply use speaker wires to connect my Cornwalls to the main outs of the SR8000. 3 - Set all speakers to small with Sub "Yes". I think I'll try that with a few modifications as follow: A - Set all speakers to small except the centre channel. This is a Heresy with decent low end. Since most of the sound comes from the center channel and much of that has low end, I think it only makes sense to set the center to Large. (Could be wrong though) B - Run a seperate set of speaker cables to the sub from the amp mains. I'll unplug them to watch movies and plug them in for direct two channel stereo with the sub. Thoughts anyone? Regards, Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 stu, that is correct on the hook-up. but i'd still set the center heresy small. the pw should be able to handle the center bass better & taking it out that real low bass from the heresy should make the highs & mids much more clear & dynamic. don't know on the feasability on your option B. you'd probably have to constantly fiddle with the sub crossover also. i just liked to turn the sub's crossover off (set it & forget it). if your pw doesn't have a switch just turn the crossover knob all the way up. i'd listen to the cornwalls w/ the sub. i think you'll find those corns sound best w/ no sub for 2 channel music listening. to make the sub blend best for music you need an adjustable crossover (like on the sub). but if you hook it up to use the crossover on the sub then the LFE in movies isn't as good. this is the vicious cycle that i got because of the fixed 80hz crossover which comes from THX standards. problem is cornwalls & klf-30 are not THX type speakers. they should be cut lower than 80hz. like 40-50hz. it's in essence a design flaw & now denon has an adjustable crossover on their new 4802. anyway i promised to stop bitchin about it & it now looks like the receiver makers are starting to listen (though not marantz). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.