wuzzzer Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 So I shipped my MINT MINT MINT RF-25s on Wednesday that I sold on eBay. All original packaging, etc. Here's the email I received today from the buyer:"Hi there the speakers arrived today.... The back of one speaker has a dent/gash in it same speaker one of the terminals is cracked, this wasn't mentioned in the listing?"Man I just want to scream! I know I've heard stories about speakers getting damaged during shipping. When I bought them originally they came to me FedEx Ground and arrived in perfect shape.A hard lesson learned...DO NOT SHIP SPEAKERS UPS GROUND OR UPS ANYTHING!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Man that sucks! Did you insure them? The reason I ask is because one of my clients runs a UPS store. Anytime you ship something UPS even with insurance if it gets damaged then the claim amount is prorated. He also told me If The UPS store packs the item then they provide the full insured amount. I was in there talking to him one day and this guy came back in to pick up his package that had been damaged. I guess he didn't want to spend the money to have him pack it so this guy did it himself. Turns out he did a bad packing job and the vase and lamp that were in it got crushed. UPS denied the claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted February 11, 2006 Author Share Posted February 11, 2006 Yes, they are insured. Sounds like the damage is limited to one of the speakers. He said he'd email me a picture of the box and the back of the speaker tomorrow. I hope they consider the factory packaging sufficient. Somethings telling me they won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def Leper Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Anytime you ship something UPS even with insurance if it gets damaged then the claim amount is prorated. He also told me If The UPS store packs the item then they provide the full insured amount. That's illegal, fraudulent, and simply not true. If you buy insurance from UPS, you can't pay for $1000 worth of insurance on a $100 item and collect $1000 if it is damaged in transit. It's a shipping company, not a gambling casino. You will also not collect full insurance amounts for things that can be repaired, collectibles, and other items where the loss is indeterminant. UPS legally can't sell you insurance and then shortchange you because you didn't pay them to pack it. The fact of the matter is that UPS Store operates are trained by UPS in UPS-recommended packaging techniques and when a package is packed by a UPS store, the UPS adjuster knows it was packed to UPS specifications. You must also pack the item properly. In the case of speakers, this doesn't mean to simply shove it in the original packaging, which is probably used (shipped before) and may be weakened with age. Remember, cardboard has plenty of acid left in it, and deteriorates with age. I would never ship speakers in thirty year old cartons and nothing else. They would go inside larger boxes with a good layer of peanuts. UPS rules and insurance policies are reasonable and are the result of a long history of unsavory characters attempting to defraud them in every conceivable way. I package items to a level a bit higher than UPS specs, and have never had a problem collecting on the few claims I've had to file over the years. Inexpensive digital point and shoot cameras have been a big help because I snap a few pictures of the box and internal packaging before sending something off, in case something happens. An insurance adjuster will have an impossible time claiming inadequate packaging when I have pictures of the package and contents at both ends of the shipping process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Stay with them on it and appeal any decision that is not satisfactory to you. In my experience, they will deny every claim in the first round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerohm Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 So I shipped my ... All original packaging, etc. Original packing was HARDLY meant to protect against the abuse of typical consumer carrier services. When shipped from the factory, they are on shrink wrapped pallets with several other units. Rule of thumb: If ONE person can't comfortably handle the package (due to weight OR size), you are at high risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 UPS rules and insurance policies are reasonable and are the result of a long history of unsavory characters attempting to defraud them in every conceivable way. That is simply not accurate. I've been through this more than I care to addmit, I can tell you FIRST HAND that when the adjuster inspect's the damaged contents (preferably at your home) you will at that time need to show proof of the damaged items worth, otherwise, it will be determined by the adjuster, based on HIS knowledge (that's typically a joke) and years of experience of what is best for UPS, and what is the most they can get away with. Like any giant company, UPS passes the burden of their cost due to damage shipping claims to you, they're favorite customer. Yes, UPS does get scammed from time to time, but that cost is passed on to you, everytime, all the time. Guaranteed. Whether it's due to your packaging or their negligence, makes no difference. They will pay you the least they can get away with. They are not in the business of losing money, you will have to fight for your claim, and show proof of the items worth. And that doesn't mean what they're selling for on epay. If you want to come close to getting half the claimed worth, start digging for a reciept or any legit information on the speakers worth. And, whatever you do, DO NOT describe your item as antique, or vintage, or you'll be really screwed. UPS and FedEx both have special policies for shipped items like Jewlery, Cash, Antiques, etc. And it's understandable why. It's all in that teeny tiny barely visible hollow text print on the back of your reciept. Factory packaging material for an item of this nature will "typically" be significantly better than anything UPS requires. My 20yr old Forte boxes with 3" factory styrofoam worked fine. And I'm fairly confident that most people on this forum can tell the difference between a deteriorated cardboard box, and a good one. It's not rocket science man, it's cardboard. UPS, and FedEx are big boy's that have developed well honed cover-their-asss shipping policys. Now Go Get Your Reciepts and Speaker Worth Info......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codhead Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 There is a sign on the counter at a nearby UPS terminal that reads "All electronics MUST be shipped in the original packaging." This must be some kind of UPS policy, as I would not think it would be up to an individual UPS location to make this determination. If they claim the original packaging is insufficient, here's the location with the sign: UPS CUSTOMER CENTER 373 CROSS RD N DARTMOUTH, MA 02747 800-742-5877 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def Leper Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 UPS rules and insurance policies are reasonable and are the result of a long history of unsavory characters attempting to defraud them in every conceivable way. That is simply not accurate. I've been through this more than I care to addmit, I can tell you FIRST HAND that when the adjuster inspect's the damaged contents (preferably at your home) you will at that time need to show proof of the damaged items worth, otherwise, it will be determined by the adjuster, based on HIS knowledge (that's typically a joke) and years of experience of what is best for UPS, and what is the most they can get away with. While my comments were regarding personal shipments, I've already shipped more than $1,000,000.00 worth of vehicles and instruments this year (yes, it's only mid-February) via various carriers, mostly to US addresses but all over the world. Just this week I shipped out several $25,000 instruments and a car worth about $250,000. Incidentally, the instruments I just shipped out were shipped via UPS. I'm very familiar with UPS and the other carriers and know several of the adjusters are on a first name basis. I admit our shipping expediters are experts at safely packaging expensive items for shipment, but sometimes there is a problem and we experience a loss (very rare) or damage. We've never had any problem getting full recovery from any of the shippers, and even though we have a whole building full of lawyers, we've never had to use them with a shipper. Why? Because we pack to their specs (actually better) and they have no reason not to pay a fair settlement. If you've "been through this more than you care to addmit" then I can see where the problem lies. Insufficient and careless packaging. I've seen some amazing things at the local UPS office when dropping off packages, and the clerks tell me that they are simply astounded by what some people think is adequate packaging. Saying that UPS systematically tries to defraud clients of fair insurance settlements is a bit libelous and you should use some care-- Just because this is the internet doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for what you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 This was not an attack on you Def, but since you chose to assume the packaging skills of the people that sent me items that were damaged, I feel it only fair to make some assumtion of my own. We've never had any problem getting full recovery from any of the shippers, and even though we have a whole building full of lawyers, we've never had to use them with a shipper. Why? Because..... Quote "I've already shipped more than $1,000,000.00 worth of vehicles and instruments this year." End Quote. THAT'S WHY. Again, it's not rocket science. Assuming what you say is true, would you pay off your multi-million dollar client. I sure would, no questions asked. Saying that UPS systematically tries to defraud clients of fair insurance settlements is a bit libelous and you should use some care-- Just because this is the internet doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for what you say. I didn't say that, you did.... But I do believe this one to be an accurate statement. I'm very familiar with UPS and the other carriers and know several of the adjusters are on a first name basis. I admit our shipping expediters are experts at safely packaging expensive items for shipment, but sometimes there is a problem and we experience a loss (very rare) or damage. Ooops, you've said it again, only this time you managed to contradict yourself at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
126mhz Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 This is my bad dream. See, I don't want to worry about ANY recovery because my life is so full right now I don't have time to have to worry about being burned in the first place! THAT is why I have passed up more deals on items to be shipped than I can recall. I just don't want to deal with the bologna in the first place. When I shipped my McInotsh C11 pre to Craig at NOS Valves I packed the thing so that it could go through a war zone and survive. (Craig mentioned it to me!) Craig is also the only one in my recent memory that I've bought something from that needed to be shipped. He packed my "New" Scott LT110B tuner so well it made it with no problems, but I thought about it every day from the time I bought it until the day it arrived. I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this kind of thing,.... Good luck my friend, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.records Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Sorry to hear about another shipping casualty. I have my best luck with FedEx Ground. Not only are they cheaper, but they seem to be a little easier on items I have bought and sold. Last week I sold and shipped a Jolida amp from Missouri to Maine by FedEx ground. It was packed in a shockfree bag, 4" of large bubble wrap, boxed with 3" of peanuts crammed tight, then the box was heavily sealed with tape. There were no voids inside the box at all. Then I got another box, lined the insides with another layer of cut to fit cardboad, placed 4" of peanuts in the bottom, placed the smaller box inside, and filled and stuffed, overpacked, 4" of peanuts around all sides and top. Then placed a cut piece of cardboard over that and heavily taped the top shut. The package was solid as a brick when it went in the mail. I insured it for it's full value and told the guy at the counter that it should arrive safely to Maine unless they kick it all the way there. A rule of thumb that I go by, is it should be able to withstand a 6' drop without causing any damage to the product inside. I try to pack to those specs, and to date have had no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 You are correct. Original packaging is NOT sufficient for shipping UPS. Use the 8ft drop test. If the package can't handle being dropped 5 times from 8ft, than it is NOT packed good enough. Most of the old timers know this. It is the guys who are starting to ship stuff that get burned. UPS will screw you over in a heart beat, as you are not a million dollar customer. Good luck with future shipping! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 UPS store packaging is the worst I have seen to date!! DO NOT USE THE UPS STORETO PACKAGE ANYTHING!!! In fact I myself will never give UPS a single dime of my money. Fed Ex all the way here. I'm not saying there perfect but they are indeed one heck of allot better to deal with then UPS. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 UPS store packaging is the worst I have seen to date!! DO NOT USE THE UPS STORETO PACKAGE ANYTHING!!! In fact I myself will never give UPS a single dime of my money. Fed Ex all the way here. I'm not saying there perfect but they are indeed one heck of allot better to deal with then UPS. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def Leper Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Gilbert, knowing someone on a first-name basis doesn't mean that I'm living with them. I deal with many people on an infrequent basis but still remember them. Your large print hissy fit and desperate attempt to put words in my mouth speaks for itself. One of the more disgusting abuses of forums like this is to use them as places to assassinate the character of non-participants and generally trash people or businesses who aren't here to defend themselves. Bad form and rather cowardly, to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.cherry Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 i am an independant contractor doing mostly high end residential work. i see all kinds of things that i have ordered come in totaled. it's a bummer indeed. one of my clients is a woman that runs a packing and shipping store just down the road from me. i have crated up every thing from a full dressed honda goldwing to art and custom furniture and antiques worth tons of money. so far nothing i have crated has ever arrived damaged. one of my jobs during my younger days was working in a place building infared gas analyzers. these were used in hospitals and by some big name folks like nasa etc. these were shipped using ups and many of them were comming back damaged and needing re-callibrated. i was asked to help develop packaging that would ensure these things arrived functioning properly. our test was simple, take a unit, box er up and go out front and launch it down the two story flight of steel stairs to the parking lot below. effective re-creation of the handeling received by products. long story short...if you put something in a cardboard box and ship it you are just asking for JUNK to arrive at the other end. the more you write fragile on it the more they try to break it. box it up like you are sending your new born baby in it. then pray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 "I have my best luck with FedEx Ground." On the other hand, my worst experiences are with FedEx Ground. There were several times when the packages were so beat up, the deilvery person didn't bother to ring my doorbell - just dropped the box and ran! I really don't blame the carriers though as its usually the fault of the packaging and packer. Some folks just don't realize what goes on in the distribution centers - much less the trucks. One particularly bad experience was when a fella from Canada shipped an Oracle turntable. He had the original packing but obviously little experience with packing. The box arrived fairly unscathed but when I opened it, I realized this guy had simply placed the TT in the box, stuffed the packing material here and there and closed the lid. He didn't separate the platter from the plinth or the plinth from the subchassis and its suspension. The weight of the platter alone was enough to ruin the springs which bounced (violently, I'm sure) the entire trip. The suspension was completely shot, the sub-chassis was scratched to hell. Amazingly, the arm and cartridge seemed unharmed - a pretty tall order considering the fellow didn't even remove the dustcover which had snapped in half. I sent the TT back immediately (and I packed it very carefully in the hopes of passing along a clue). Still, it took me 8 months to get my $ back and we haven't spoken to each other since (he thinks I called him an idiot - I kinda did). Now this guy is an engineer on the team that designs the Space Arm for the Shuttle so he's probably smart. He just can't imagine his gear being handled with anything but kid gloves (he still blames the carrier although a mutual friend has so much trouble in this regard, he now drives to the fella's house to pick up gear). My wife works at a hospital and brings home boxes that heart valves and pumps were shipped in. These boxes are double-walled with inner boxes all separated by dense foam and padding. You can literally jump on these things and best of all, they are marked with such phrases as "SURGICAL HEART DEVICE - HANDLE WITH EXTREME CARE" with the manufacturer, usually Metronic, clearly stamped on them. I never have a problem with one of these boxes - in fact, Jud Barber (Joule Electra) got such a kick out of a box for an artificial heart, he asked if he could keep it. -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 "UPS store packaging is the worst I have seen to date!! " Couldn't agree more! I sold a pr of JBL L-200's to a friend who promptly sold them to a gentleman in CA. My friend, Bob is blind and I wasn't around to help so he called UPS who directed him to a Mailbox Etc. store. They packed the speakers separately, charged him $200 and that was that... until the gentleman called a week later. He was in tears because one of the speakers fell off the truck in front of his eyes and was in pieces. Apparently, the speaker was packed in a big box with nothing but bubble-wrap and peanuts. Worse yet, Mailboes Etc. blamed UPS who blamed Mailboxes Etc.(this was before they owned them). It took over 6 months for my friend to get a check from UPS and they tried to convince him that the speaker was repairable ($100), then replaceable ($200) before they finally agreed to pay what they sold for. -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 It's not only the manner of how losses are handled, but, primarily that UPS handles stuff very, very roughly. It matters little what or how, or how marked a package is if one shipper rountinely handles it "nicer" then they're better. In my experience Fed-Ex does better at handling the box so that's my preference. .......and yeah, it still needs to be packed for a 300 foot plunge into a granite quarry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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