wuzzzer Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I was looking online at the link to the Klipsch Heresy IIIs that were posted and checked out the other brands/speakers. Bostons $2700/pr 90dB Polks $3196/pr 88dB Phase Technology $2000/pr 92dB Heresy III $1500/pr 98dB I mean, I understand the physics of what makes speakers more efficient, so why don't other companies make theirs that way? At about 2 watts my RF-7s would play as loud as the Polks would at my receiver's maximum output rating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancientdude Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Horns, Horns more Horns. Horn loaded speakers have much higher sensitivities: JBL, klipsch etc.... Put your hands to your face in the form of a horn and talk...it increases the volume! Thats the "basic theory". Let the others give you the real low down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Horn loading and efficient drivers/crossovers = max output to YOU the buyer. This does not always translate in sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 I understand why Klipsch are more efficient, I don't understand why other companies don't make theirs more efficient! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Because horns, I believe, are said to provide distortion - or something qualitative that is unfavorable. There's said to be a trade-off for quality in cones vs. loud in horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 using 4 ohm lightweight drivers and good cabinet designs helps as well. A 1" dome tweeter is sure a heck of a lot less expensive than a K55 driver and real horn. It's a manufacturing cost thing to some degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 they may value other aspects of speaker design.... ie: flatter impedance curve, higher order x-overs, flatter freq response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 If you hold box size constant, going one octave lower costs you 9dB of efficiency! The Heresy has no bass (relative to the other models listed). This is why you see small subs with killo-watt amplifiers. The Carver designed sub had 2.7KW for an 11" cube (0.4 cu ft net), if you bump it to 4 cu ft net (external 22" cube with 1" walls, less driver and amp displacement) it would only require 270W for the same performance. No such thing as a free lunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 I've always wondered how the RF series claim such a high sensitivity...I know there's a free 3dB obtained measuring 2.83V into the 4 ohms of the parallel woofers (aka, 2 watts...or at the 2 ohm impedance dip it's more like 4 watts)....but still...seems like a stretch to me. For the same SPL same size drivers will be moving the same distance - regardless of the power needed to achieve it. I guess klipsch really tweaks out their motors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Back in the tube days, speakers were, in general, more efficient than they are today, whether they incorporated horns or not. They had to be because the typical tube amps weren't capable of putting out a lot of power. Solid state amps made it pratical to build higher power amps cheaply. So speakers did not need to be as efficient to produce the same sound levels. Sensitivity is pretty much determined by the mass of the driven elements in the speaker and the strength of the magnetic field. A stronger magnetic field means a bigger, more expensive magnet. So, a manufacturer is not going to produce a high sensitivity speaker unless there is a reason for it. Manufacturers that use horn loaded squawkers and tweeters will typcally use more efficient woofers than their competitors to keep up as well as possible witht the sensitivities of the squawkers and tweeters. Even then, they may have to pad the input levels to the squawkers and tweeters to maintain consistent levels across the frequency range, like in the Heresy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 using 4 ohm lightweight drivers and good cabinet designs helps as well. A 1" dome tweeter is sure a heck of a lot less expensive than a K55 driver and real horn. It's a manufacturing cost thing to some degree. Not so fast, Dynaudio's Esotar soft dome tweeters are much more difficult to make and matched like no K55 and the tweeters alone sell for more than most smaller Klipsch speakers.Quality wise Dynaudio drivers put to shame I will not name who,and most major driver makers around the world. There are companies that make drivers alot better anything Klipsch has.This is if you have the proper amp to drive them,Klipsch big advantage is an easy load for the common amp and they need little power to achieve a high SPL. Accuton drivers are not efficient,not as Klipsch drivers and they are second to none in quality and craftsmanship,and the diamond membrane inverted dome tweeters cost more than any pair of Klipsch speakers save the special edition K-Horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Sorry, I was speaking of the general population of speakers, not the esoteric models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Not so fast, Dynaudio's Esotar soft dome tweeters are much more difficult to make and matched like no K55 and the tweeters alone sell for more than most smaller Klipsch speakers.Quality wise Dynaudio drivers put to shame I will not name who,and most major driver makers around the world. There are companies that make drivers alot better anything Klipsch has.This is if you have the proper amp to drive them,Klipsch big advantage is an easy load for the common amp and they need little power to achieve a high SPL. Accuton drivers are not efficient,not as Klipsch drivers and they are second to none in quality and craftsmanship,and the diamond membrane inverted dome tweeters cost more than any pair of Klipsch speakers save the special edition K-Horns. You can't really compare the difference between "build quality" of drivers serving different purposes (ie, a hornloaded driver versus a direct radiating kind). Also, one thing these fancy low sensitivity driver companies won't tell you is that their driver is only good for low signal levels...you cannot deny the laws of physics and voice coil behavior dramatically changes as a function of temperature, which is a function of power into the system. The low efficiency design means there is going to be a ton more heat generated (conservation of energy). What you end up with is a driver that changes its behavior very drastically as the SPL changes. Think about it...every 3dB is a doubling of power. A driver with 9dB less efficiency is going to run 8x hotter for the same SPL! We're talking temps in excess of 500 degrees fahrenheit (90dB speaker running at 500 watts if I remember correctly - I think it's more like 200 degrees at more normal levels). It's insane how the frequency response changes, let alone the impedance and time-domain behavior. In the tests I've seen conducted, klipsch has always won the non-linearity contest - by a huge landslide too. High efficiency is the core of their design concepts - not stupid flat one spl frequency response [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Not so fast, Dynaudio's Esotar soft dome tweeters are much more difficult to make and matched like no K55 and the tweeters alone sell for more than most smaller Klipsch speakers.Quality wise Dynaudio drivers put to shame I will not name who,and most major driver makers around the world. There are companies that make drivers alot better anything Klipsch has.This is if you have the proper amp to drive them,Klipsch big advantage is an easy load for the common amp and they need little power to achieve a high SPL. Accuton drivers are not efficient,not as Klipsch drivers and they are second to none in quality and craftsmanship,and the diamond membrane inverted dome tweeters cost more than any pair of Klipsch speakers save the special edition K-Horns. You can't really compare the difference between "build quality" of drivers serving different purposes (ie, a hornloaded driver versus a direct radiating kind). Also, one thing these fancy low sensitivity driver companies won't tell you is that their driver is only good for low signal levels...you cannot deny the laws of physics and voice coil behavior dramatically changes as a function of temperature, which is a function of power into the system. The low efficiency design means there is going to be a ton more heat generated (conservation of energy). What you end up with is a driver that changes its behavior very drastically as the SPL changes. Think about it...every 3dB is a doubling of power. A driver with 9dB less efficiency is going to run 8x hotter for the same SPL! We're talking temps in excess of 500 degrees fahrenheit (90dB speaker running at 500 watts if I remember correctly - I think it's more like 200 degrees at more normal levels). It's insane how the frequency response changes, let alone the impedance and time-domain behavior. In the tests I've seen conducted, klipsch has always won the non-linearity contest - by a huge landslide too. High efficiency is the core of their design concepts - not stupid flat one spl frequency response [] For one the Esotar is a very efficient tweeter and can operate for prolonged periods producing very high SPL(over 116dB). I have many Dynaudio speakers and all including the diminutive Contour 1.1 can produce a sustained SPL that will make you ill,unless you listen with earplugs in place. The heat generated can be in the largest part dissipated and is not a problem.Not at the levels 99.9% of us operate/use these speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 aye, but the esotar is a beamy little sucker and suffers from power compression just like the rest (though it manages to keep a rather flat response anyway): http://www.gattiweb.com/images/dynaudio/esotarT330d_data.pdf I don't consider 116dB very loud, but I have no doubt they still sound good at "normal" levels. I think now is the time where we bring in a price comparison [] Looks like a great nearfield tweeter to me. But it's easy to critique anything really cuz everything falls so short of perfect so don't mind my rambling. Heat is the enemy though...notice that tweeter is excursion limited to 1000W, but can only handle 150W continuous....just imagine if heat weren't an issue and it could handle 1000W all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 using 4 ohm lightweight drivers and good cabinet designs helps as well. A 1" dome tweeter is sure a heck of a lot less expensive than a K55 driver and real horn. It's a manufacturing cost thing to some degree. Not so fast, Dynaudio's Esotar soft dome tweeters are much more difficult to make and matched like no K55 and the tweeters alone sell for more than most smaller Klipsch speakers.Quality wise Dynaudio drivers put to shame I will not name who,and most major driver makers around the world. There are companies that make drivers alot better anything Klipsch has.This is if you have the proper amp to drive them,Klipsch big advantage is an easy load for the common amp and they need little power to achieve a high SPL. Accuton drivers are not efficient,not as Klipsch drivers and they are second to none in quality and craftsmanship,and the diamond membrane inverted dome tweeters cost more than any pair of Klipsch speakers save the special edition K-Horns. that is the b&w speakers speaker right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 aye, but the esotar is a beamy little sucker and suffers from power compression just like the rest (though it manages to keep a rather flat response anyway): http://www.gattiweb.com/images/dynaudio/esotarT330d_data.pdf I don't consider 116dB very loud, but I have no doubt they still sound good at "normal" levels. I think now is the time where we bring in a price comparison [] Looks like a great nearfield tweeter to me. But it's easy to critique anything really cuz everything falls so short of perfect so don't mind my rambling. Heat is the enemy though...notice that tweeter is excursion limited to 1000W, but can only handle 150W continuous....just imagine if heat weren't an issue and it could handle 1000W all day long. I remember reading ones the specs that a bose had liquid cooled tweeters....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 I remember reading ones the specs that a bose had liquid cooled tweeters....... FerroFluid ...... 'cause the Speaks are sooo inefficient.......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 Who, With the PDF you posted you confirmed the Esotar is a very high power handling tweeter plus the Esotar is an elite tweeter. Like I've said at the levels the Esotar starts to fail your ears will be long tired and you will be losing your hearing.So its a moot point,who listens at home at insane levels? NOBODY,any living being will suffer more than enjoy the sound past a certain SPL. And where most people will listen to music(even very LOUD)the Esotar is simply a top three tweeter world wide(the other two are the Accuton inverted diamond tweeter and the Scan Speak Revelator ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Ear, all three of the tweeters you mention are of such good quality, that they are used around the world as fire alarm buzzers. [] I have listened to the best of the best in speakers many times. I have compared them all side by side and I ALWAYS pick the same manufactures speakers EVERY time. Even Klipsch takes a back seat to the worlds finest speakers. Nothing sounds like a live performance as a Bose Lifestyle Home Theater system. It is the cream of the crop. I know that even you will agree that even your diamond enhanced super tweeter is nothing, compared to the Bose Supercube! OK, so I was overdosed on pain meds when I wrote this........[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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