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Danley Labs DTS-20 On The Way


TheSoundBroker

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We have a new Danley Labs DTS-20 tapped horn demo unit on the way. If you live in the Pac Northwest and want to experience the full power and fist-of-god like force of a sub capable of 125db of output at 20 hz (measured OUTDOORS), then give me a shout. This is one of the few subwoofers on the planet that truly matches to big Heritage.

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I don't think most of us realize how much bass that thing has the capability to output. You might be able to use it to recreate a sonic boom. Just don't explode your head.

On second thought, maybe one of those is my ticket to accurately reproducing the foundation to pipe organ music. Now I just need to sell my cars to buy it and move out of this apartment to hear it. Have fun!

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One day when I get serious I'll order a pair of these to complement my army of little and medium sized subs. For now I am fine,with output capabilities over the 120dB below 25Hz point I am not bass deprived. [:P]

125dB @ 20Hz with no room gain sounds like a deal to me,and is priced right.

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how about 123db anechoic from 14 hertz!

How low can we hear anyway?

I think the upper end is about 20KHz if we're young and haven't damaged our ears from rock concerts, etc. But the lower end is interesting.

I was just reading some transcripts from a forum with Tom Danley as the guest and he seemed to imply that we could hear below 20Hz. Again, I'm not sure if there is a difference between "hearing" a very low frequency and "feeling" one.

Any thoughts?

Chris

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The Thing is the average range of a human is 20-20000. But the younger we are the better we hear, age takes a toll on the upper range as most people at age 18 cannot hear much over 16000 hertz. I remember reading an article after age 50 we're mostly down to 14,000 hertz. But the thing is just like speakers our ears do not just totally stop functioning but it is just that that we cannot hear it as well. There is alot of studies that yes SACD with higher than 20000 hertz range sound more fuller even though we really cannot hear it. Just like most speakers emit a low range bass that just is not in par with everything else.

I remember Tom Noisuance speaking of that he has little to no ear damamge even hearing subs that hit 125db and all. His explaination is that most hearing damage happens to be the high end which is true to some extent. The body starts to take over the hearing and feeling part over the ear when it goes below 30 hertz. That is why even older people even world war II veterans that have permanant hearing loss still listen and "hear" bass.

I remember that a 20 hertz wavelength is around 54 feet wide. Think just how wide that is, do you really think that it just passes your ear? It passes through your whole body. High frequency can actually be focused (they used an audio type of self defense weapon on that cruise ship that was attack by pirates not long ago, it emitted from what the AP said was a high frequency directional cannon that emitted 150-160 db pitch noises) while low generally is omni (german scientist during world war II made such low hertz weapons but concluded that it was too dangerous as both sides felt the adverse effects which made it useless, though I guess with that logic nuclear bombs are useless too....

Oh yeah there was a sub that looked like a fan a couple months ago that hit ever audio forum there was. People didn't believe it at first because it looked like a fan, but I suppose it true after some evidence was founded. But it is used as a Infinite Baffle and was supposed to be flat from 10 hertz something like 130 db. Where at that spl you supposedly "can" hear 15 hertz, 10 hertz wavelengths though I am not sure that our actually hearing it but your ear drums about to explode?

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I was just reading some transcripts from a

forum with Tom Danley as the guest and he seemed to imply that we

could hear below 20Hz. Again, I'm not sure if there is a

difference between "hearing" a very low frequency and "feeling"

one.

The physics/psychology of hearing is a most interesting topic...I would suggest reading up on it if you ever get the chance.

But yes, bone conduction has a huge influence on what we hear....and it

actually occurs at all frequencies. Our ears are so sensitivite that

they can detect a 1 Angstrom displacement of air (molecules are

measuread in angstroms...). So just imagine the vibration that occurs

in your noise, mouth, lungs, ribg, skull, etc etc that occurs when

listening to music. These vibrations transmit very well through our

bodies and cause the eardrum to vibrate. Ever hear your own voice on a

recording? Bone conduction is the main reason for the disparity that

one percieves (ya, talk about a huge difference).

As far as hearing damage is concerned...it is a misnomer to think that

LF sounds can't cause damage. Just because a frequency has a huge

wavelength doesn't mean it's not pushing as much air and isn't getting

into the ear canal. Yes, different kinds of hearing damage occur, but

any kind of hearing damage is a bad thing. If I come across the

articles again I'll be sure to post them.

(Btw, long wavelength sounds wrap around obstacles that are small in

comparision - aka, low notes don't go through a person. Think of how

ocean waves just wrap around vertical supports for stuff....)

I would like to read up on these studies with SACD...as I have a hard

time believing people were able to pass blind ABX tests. But SACD is an

entirely different "compression" scheme so it's not really apples to

apples anyway. A better test would involve comparing the results of a

normal hearing test against analog playback with a switchable variable

LPF filter.

Btw, I'm pretty sure mythbusters debunked the idea of LF sound weapons...

And then of course you have fletcher-munson curves depicting SPL's of equal loudness (relative to 1kHz):

FletcherMunson_ELC.png

(http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sound_(Physics_Study_Guide))

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With the lf waves wrapping around the body, It is sorta like FM AM radio where AM is a long wavelength that if your not in the wave's path your signal is poor but you still will get a signal even if not in the wave's path (getting an amplified antannae drastically helps) and Yes your right that it wraps around a person but just like acoustics, there is only a certain amount that actually is recieved into one's ear that is why we toe in the speakers for imaging etc. There is a certain amount that actually goes through out body.

As with the lf not affecting our hearing, it does but not say the upper hertz that tends to resonate and echo in the ear canal making it substancially more dangerous.

Mythbusters was going for the brown note..... The Germans used not a speaker but a 6 foot wide pipeorgan type whistle to generate incredable spl on lf not caring about distortion etc... Not musical but just plain jack hammer to your head type throbbing

Also mythbusters should have used it inside and used instead of single sine waves, they should have used sweeps or heck a range. And just as with medications, they should have done the effects on more people to give it a fair evaluation.

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"I was just reading some transcripts from a forum with Tom Danley as

the guest and he seemed to imply that we could hear below 20Hz. Again,

I'm not sure if there is a difference between "hearing" a very low

frequency and "feeling" one."

When you get really low at higher SPLs it really does become more of an experience then just hearing it.

All sorts of strange things can happen when you get deep and loud. If

the sub is low enough in distortion so that you don't hear harmonics

you can set it up such that the air just sort of feels like it is

pulsating/electric. That really freaks some people out.

When I was doing some very low frequency testing (around 15hz with the

DIY subs not the ContraBass) when I was done and left the room I

realized I was totally wired. The VLF apparently caused my 'fight or

flight' response to kick in. I was laughing about that pretty hard once

I realized that was what happened.

Anyhow.... good luck with the DTS-20. Be sure to have help moving it around.

Shawn

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"As far as hearing damage is concerned...it is a misnomer to think that LF sounds can't cause damage. "

Sure it can, but it takes *much* higher SPLs then it does at higher

frequencies. If you can find some of the old posts from Danley on the

bass list some of the experiments they have done are awe inspiring.

Things like 18 or 20 CBs (or Bass-Tech 7)s in a warehouse playing so

loudly that literally the walls of the building were moving. They

didn't go louder because they were afraid from the integrity of the

warehouse.

"Btw, I'm pretty sure mythbusters debunked the idea of LF sound weapons..."

I'm pretty sure I read a quote from Danley somewhere that they should have called him to supply the bass for those tests.... ;)

I know from LF stuff I have done if you go loud enough below 20hz some people are pretty easy to freak out from the bass.

Shawn

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"I was just reading some transcripts from a forum with Tom Danley as

the guest and he seemed to imply that we could hear below 20Hz. Again,

I'm not sure if there is a difference between "hearing" a very low

frequency and "feeling" one."

When you get really low at higher SPLs it really does become more of an experience then just hearing it.

All sorts of strange things can happen when you get deep and loud. If

the sub is low enough in distortion so that you don't hear harmonics

you can set it up such that the air just sort of feels like it is

pulsating/electric. That really freaks some people out.

When I was doing some very low frequency testing (around 15hz with the

DIY subs not the ContraBass) when I was done and left the room I

realized I was totally wired. The VLF apparently caused my 'fight or

flight' response to kick in. I was laughing about that pretty hard once

I realized that was what happened.

Anyhow.... good luck with the DTS-20. Be sure to have help moving it around.

Shawn

It has been noted that the ghost beind you effect is caused by very low frequencies, I should test it one day in my dorm lol! I should play 10 hertz signals and see if people are spooked the next day! And yes the fight or flight responce comes into play playing low frequencies

edit: I remember now that they call below hearing sounds infrasounds and such.... supposedly all animals have the ability to hear it to a degree... that is why elephants can supposedly hear a thunderstorm miles away, birds flying away before a tsunami heck all the animals. That is why whales beach themselves (that or the fact that the sonar that the us government uses emits 170 db spl at either extremely low or high hertz! remember it is easier to have higher spl in water then air. Air max I think is 178 or 188 something like that due to the density of air. The loudest I think is thunder at the source. But since water is many times more dense I believe 230 db spl is capable. That is why submarines try to be as silent as possible since sound travels more easy in water)

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"It has been noted that the ghost beind you effect is caused by very

low frequencies, I should test it one day in my dorm lol! I should play

10 hertz signals and see if people are spooked the next day!"

Yup, try around 19hz. I believe that is where most of the research in

that area has been centered. The idea of VLF being responsible for

creepy or haunted areas has some interesting theories about it.

Doing some searches on Infrasound and ghosts or haunting will find a lot of different sites. For example...

http://www.corporate.coventry.ac.uk/?d=459&a=2671

Shaw

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The articles I read about LF ear damage were in direct response to some

of the research that tried to show no damage occurs...I really should

just find the articles and post them instead of asking ppl to take my

word for it...the articles were talking about sustained levels as low

as 100dB that cause permanent damage. And just because the wavelengths

are big and wrap around the body, doesn't mean that the sound doesn't

travel down the ear (aka, just as much LF energy makes it down the ear

as HF energy...if anything, high frequencies have a harder time turning

the corner). Lower frequencies also have better bone conduction (which

is the real issue). There is a point though where the frequency gets

low enough that the behavior of the ear moves into a different "mode"

for lack of a better description...(if you think about it, normal daily

movement could be modelled as sound waves - which would correspond to

like 5 and 8Hz, but such movements don't damage our ears....in fancy

terms, I suppose we could talk about the impedance of our ear and how

it acts like a high pass filter...)

The reason for toe-ing in speakers has nothing to do with any of

this...speakers simply do not have an even off-axis response. You point

the speaker at the listening position because speakers are generally

designed to optimize the on-axis response (though there are some other

designs that don't and with such speakers there is no direct benefit to

toe-in). You've also got room acoustics to consider where toe-ing in

the speakers reduces the number and magnitude of early reflections.

Btw, I have been exposed to some pretty loud subharmonic signals - was

never sure how loud because the meter was pegged. It was wierd because

you couldn't really hear anything besides your voice modulating and

your lungs pulsing when you opened your mouth...I never got the flight

or fight response though.

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what about the hf that tends to resonate in the ear canal and thus has a bump in db at that range

most people toe in to get a better image through on axis but in layman's term to minimize the distance between the speaker and ear or reduce reflections in which bose thrives on that theory. Hey how about buying these speakers that are 2 inches in cones and further reduce the output by pointing them not at your ear but at the wall? ha

Well fight or flight can mean anything from just elevated heart/blood pressure, to release of anti inflamitory natural steroids, to sweating, to pissing your pants or brown noting, to faster breathing. Hey we're all different lets find a person that is a very very low tolerant and easily upsettable person and subject them to 130 db infrasounds..... I think that would be inhumane though

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We have a new Danley Labs DTS-20 tapped horn demo unit on the way. If you live in the Pac Northwest and want to experience the full power and fist-of-god like force of a sub capable of 125db of output at 20 hz (measured OUTDOORS), then give me a shout. This is one of the few subwoofers on the planet that truly matches to big Heritage.

What amp are you planning on driving these boys with? This is a very intriguing Sub option for a Heritage rig. Until I read about this I pretty much was favoring the Klipsch THX Ultra II subs and amp. They seemed a better match than most other subs I've heard. The selection of a proper sub for a Heritage rig has always and continues on some level to vex me a bit. These being a horn-loaded box are very interestingtoo bad youre not in the PAC Southwest! I looked on the Danley site and no option to locate a Danley dealer is provided.

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We have a new Danley Labs DTS-20 tapped horn demo unit on the way. If you live in the Pac Northwest and want to experience the full power and fist-of-god like force of a sub capable of 125db of output at 20 hz (measured OUTDOORS), then give me a shout. This is one of the few subwoofers on the planet that truly matches to big Heritage.

What amp are you planning on driving these boys with? This is a very intriguing Sub option for a Heritage rig. Until I read about this I pretty much was favoring the Klipsch THX Ultra II subs and amp. They seemed a better match than most other subs I've heard. The selection of a proper sub for a Heritage rig has always and continues on some level to vex me a bit. These being a horn-loaded box are very interestingtoo bad youre not in the PAC Southwest! I looked on the Danley site and no option to locate a Danley dealer is provided.

Danley does provide a powered version of the DTS20. It employs a B&O amp that Kevin says is mounted into the back of the unit.

As far as a dealer is concerned, Soundbroker (Kevin) can help you out. He was very helpful with me.

Chris

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